Podcast Ep194 Zach Anner
Didrik Johnck: Welcome, welcome listeners to the No Barriers podcast hosted by Erik Weihenmayer. I'll pass the mic to him in a minute, but first a little about our guest. He needs no introduction. Although I tried so hard to write a catchy one, everything I recorded seemed lame, measured against the honest and frank humor, the wit, the comedic edge, and ultimately his larger than life personality.
Our guest is Zach Anner, and his antics are well documented in shows like Rollin with Zach. or his memoir, If at Birth You Don't Succeed. He's got fans, well over a half a million across the interwebs by last count, and they are inspired and hilariously entertained by his regular videos. Curious? Good. Let's join Erik and Zach right now in the studio. I'm producer Didrik Johnck, and this is the No Barriers Podcast.
Erik Weihenmayer: It's easy to talk about the successes, but what doesn't get talked about enough is the struggle. My name is Erik Weihenmayer, I've gotten the chance to ascend Mount Everest, to climb the tallest mountain in every continent, to kayak the Grand Canyon, and I happen to be blind. It's been a struggle to live what I call a no barriers life, to define it, to push the parameters of what it means.
And part of the equation is diving into the learning process and trying to illuminate the universal elements that exist along the way. In that unexplored terrain, between those dark places we find ourselves in, in the summit, exists a map. That map, that way forward, is what we call No Barriers.
Hey everyone, this is Erik Weihenmayer, another No Barriers podcast. And today, I swear, this might be my favorite interview ever in the last four years. We finally got this amazing guy, Zach Anner. And, man, Zach,, I'm such a fanboy. I've read your book twice. I was telling you earlier that my girlfriend and I were Twice, yeah. We were driving through Vancouver Island, and you were
Zach Anner: I haven't even read it twice!
Erik Weihenmayer: We listened to you the entire trip. Your voice was like, accompanying us. Making us laugh, and cry, and If you were there, we would have given you a fat hug.
Zach Anner: Next time, just invite me on the trip, and I'll read it to you, and then if there's any questions, I can answer them in real time.
Erik Weihenmayer: Awesome, yeah, just have you in the back seat. Shotgun. No, I'll be in the back seat, your shotgun in the passenger seat, yeah.
Zach Anner: Oh, you're giving me shotgun?
Erik Weihenmayer: Yeah, for sure.
Zach Anner: You are a consummate host.
Erik Weihenmayer: I know. I do the right thing. Also, we met at No Barriers at our,what we call our summit, which is like our big event that brings together our whole community and celebrates what this No Barriers life can look like. And you were one of our speakers and you hung out with us and I think did some activities.
Zach Anner: I did some archery, I believe.
Erik Weihenmayer: Yeah. so great to reconnect, friend.
Zach Anner: It's so great to reconnect. And I know we were saying this pre podcast, but I'll say it again. No Barriers was one of the best events I've ever done. The people were so enthusiastic and it was just like such a beautiful community. And I remember saying, when I left there, I was like, I'm going to come back here every year. And I haven't been back since.
Erik Weihenmayer: We'll get you back for sure now that we're reconnecting.
Zach Anner: Well thank goodness because that you what you're doing and I don't want to justbuild you up this whole podcast, but I think it's incredible. And just so many activities, so many things to do and adaptations in ways that I had never seen. So, uh, thanks for broadening my worldview and also bringing me to, Tahoe and such a, like most conferences are not in such beautiful places with so much to do.
Erik Weihenmayer: Yeah. There are places like Vegas.
Zach Anner: Yeah. And it's normally Oh, this is hotel coffee. It's just, go to the ballroom and do your speech and leave. But that just, you really put together such a beautiful event and I'm so glad that you That it is now in podcast form.
Erik Weihenmayer: And we are, so this will just be a big mutual love fest. So I wanna start with Uhhuh.
Zach Anner: No, no actual substance whatsoever. Just virtual hugs. Virtual love.
Erik Weihenmayer: Yeah. Yeah. So, uh, one, your book. okay. if at Birth You Don't Succeed, greatest title of any book in the history of books. Amazing. That is the funniest. thank you. Greatest title ,titles are so important, and that title is freaking hilarious.
Zach Anner: My, my birth was, I botched the whole thing, , so it was a pretty obvious, uh, title for me. But I'm so glad that it resonates.
Erik Weihenmayer: I'm gonna just dive right into a part of your book that I loved all your book, but part of it, and I literally talked to people when, you know, because the word diversity and inclusion, how we include people with disabilities in school and work, such a big topic today.
And I go, you know what, go read a chapter of Zach's book where he talks about being mainstreamed and how this amazing P. E. teacher included you in the the team, sports, activities. I was like, because she did it and you guys did it before this whole thing. this idea of inclusion and diversity and all this stuff, all these formal words existed.
She just did it naturally. Absolutely. And it made me realize this is what a teacher should do. Problem solve your way through it to make sure everyone is included to the best of their ability. So talk about how she did that with you.
Zach Anner: Sure. My adaptive PE teacher, Colleen Fata, I think we started working together in third or fourth grade, when I was in third or fourth grade.
And when she first came into my gym class, the goal was to adapt all the sports that we were playing to make it so that I could play them and she could level the playing field. And I remember, and she was, uh, just an amazing, teacher who, always wore, windbreaker suits and was, like, just the cosmic gym teacher.
If you were to imagine,some,a gym teacher who wouldn't let you get away with anything and really wanted to bring the best out of you, that was Colleen Fata. And, but when I was like eight or nine years old, I absolutely did not get along with her to start because she came in and she's like, this is what we're going to do to change everything so you can be a part of it.
And my whole thing is a, uh, like a very insecure kid was, you're like, let me hide in the corner. Seen as normal. I wanna be seen as normal or not seen at all. Right? And so when she says, okay, you're not gonna try and throw a basketball into the normal net, we're gonna get you a trash can. And if you can score in the trash can, then you score.
I was like mortified because other kids seeing that are like, Oh, we're, he's different. He's doing it a different way. But what I didn't realize is that sort of formed the basis for my success in life is learning how to adapt things and be a part of a team and. And just that feeling of inclusion or that adrenaline rush.
I tell a story about, playing in a handball where, the rules for that when I, whenever I was picked in gym class, I got to be a two for one deal with my best friend, Andrew, because neither one of us had the athletic prowess to like add any value to a team. So it's Oh, they come as a package.
So it's not that bad. And in handball, if I got, like even if someone attempted to pass it to me and I dropped it, then she would blow her whistle and say, okay, let's get him the ball, right?
Erik Weihenmayer: Yeah, that would be complete.
Zach Anner: Yeah. And so that was the adaptation, but I remember one time I caught an actual ball.
And just that feeling, cause the handball was squishy, so I could actually grab a hold of it. And I remember I was in front of the goal and I actually scored a goal for the first time. And like before Mrs. Fata, I just wanted to be excused from gym class. And when I got that feeling of victory or that feeling of accomplishment from being included in sports, it was like nothing else I'd ever experienced.
So it really, she's not around anymore. She unfortunately passed away. So I'm so glad that I'm able to celebrate her and that story and just everything that she gave me by forcing me to be involved in athletic activity.
Erik Weihenmayer: I love it because, like, we all need a model, right, of how to move forward and it seems like she gave you a little bit of a glimpse of what the model could look like in terms of all the crazy, cool stuff you've done in your life since then and you don't sit on the sidelines, right?
And you could have easily been the kid that like, was the last picked, but everybody in the book wanted you on the team because, because you were an advantage.
Zach Anner: Because it wasn't quite, it wasn't exactly fair to the other kids, but now I'm so grateful. Those kids could, they're probably still bitter about it, but honestly,it's those experiences that allow me to like, go to Workout Wednesday and make YouTube videos of me sucking at sports and trying to motivate people through my failures rather than my successes,
and I think Inclusion isn't as complicated as we make it out to seem sometimes. It really is just, what's it going to take to get them,playing the game. And it's not, it doesn't have to be, done through mountains of red tape. You don't have to have, you know. meeting after meeting about it, because it's really just what does a kid need to make them feel like they're part of a team?
Erik Weihenmayer: Yeah. And one teacher can do that.
Hey everyone, this is Erik. And I just want to remind you. No Barriers is not just a podcast, it's also a movement and an organization. Our mission is to empower people with challenges, to break through barriers, to discover purpose, and to find ways of elevating their lives and their communities. If you want to support our work, Go to NoBarriersUSA. org slash donate.
Okay. So another question, do you still have the hots for Cindy Crawford? And, and, have you ever met her? Like she wrote about her in the book so beautifully. Did she ever invite you to like her mansion and have you guys do a workout together or anything like that?
Zach Anner: I feel like this story needs a little context. That's because you're making it seem like I'm a 40 year old man who's in love with Cindy Crawford, not that's not, the case, but I may have run away from my house in Buffalo, New York to try and meet Cindy Crawford when I was 10 years old, a perfectly normal prepubescent response for two running away to New York City, we got about four blocks, but to answer your question, we have not met. Felt like there was going to be some chance when I was doing the book tour in Chicago, like she was in Chicago at the same time.
I don't even know if she's aware of my existence. I also don't trust myself not to make a fool of myself, even though I'm happily in a relationship and getting engaged soon. Like, you know, I feel if I met Cindy Crawford, I would just, I might turn back into that 10 year old boy.
Erik Weihenmayer: Sure, probably all would.Another thing I liked about your book is that it was so real, right? You weren't trying to be real, you were just like, brutally honest is not even the right phrase for it. You were just real, right? You wrote about everything that a person struggles with and dreams about. And because of that realness, everyone related, like me.
Okay, so tell me to shut up if this is off topic, but you wrote about it. Like, you know, like pooping your pants and stuff. It's every single one of us have pooped our pants, And you don't, you didn't hold back on any
Zach Anner: I'm not sure it's 100 percent but
Erik Weihenmayer: No, I think, Didrik, our producer,have you pooped your pants? Yes, just, you know you have.
Zach Anner: He's doing it right now. That's why he can't turn his video on.
Erik Weihenmayer: Yeah, so So, I just think it was so real. Was that a conscious decision? To just be brutally honest and have fun and just make sure you weren't gonna because I think the realness is so important in the connection of writing a book.
Zach Anner: Well, here's the deal, like, when that happened,I,for those that don't know and haven't read the book, I've had, since high school, I've had IBS and my stomach and my relationship to it has been like the number one thing that has kept me from doing things. Like I dropped out of high school because I was worried about my stomach and had, felt sick every day.
When I got the opportunity to, compete on a reality show on the Oprah Network. I, that was also something that was really nerve wracking of like, do I want to compete on this reality show because I want to make sure that, my stomach is not going to be an issue.
And then on the second day, we were doing a challenge with Dr. Phil and it was taking longer than it should have because of some production headaches. And I wound up, pooping my pants. Like, like, not in front of Oprah or Dr. Phil or anybody, but it was like, I had to, go and take care of everything in the bathroom.
And luckily I could salvage the situation with nobody knowing, but it was in that moment, it was facing my absolute worst fear. And you know what I felt in that moment was, Oh, I can't wait to tell this story. I, if I get out of this and I, I survive it really, There's nothing that I can't do. And so when I was working with the, on the book with my writing partner, Gillian Grassi, it was more, we were dating at the time.
And it was more of like she was very much of like, you got to be really honest about these things because that's why, why people want to hear from you and it will make people feel less alone because,other people have gone through this, particularly. when you have a disability, it's the actual diagnosis is not the thing that holds you back most of the time.
Most of the time it's social perceptions and then also fear around being perceived. And I thought, one, I think the story's funny and it wound up well because I wound up winning that reality show and hosting my own show. And it was also, like, the worst possible thing happened. And I'm okay. Yeah, and you survived.
And people need to know that even when they're facing, great embarrassment, that sometimes what's on the other side of it, it's okay.
Erik Weihenmayer: Yeah. And you took something that's your greatest fear and you made it funny, which is like a, like your, a lot of your humor, right? It's just taking hard things, real things, tough things, scary things, and finding the beauty and the fun in it, right?
Zach Anner: Oh, you have to. I think it's an old cliche at this point, but it's you can't choose the events of your life. You can change the genre though. And if you can take a step back and see why something is funny, it makes it a lot easier to go through it. It almost makes you want to think Oh, is there anything more that can go wrong that would make this even better?
And when you can embrace that spirit of, Oh, the hurdles are part of the fun The blocks and the things that go wrong that all just make it a better story. Like another way to say that is it makes it a better life because once you are able to have that perspective on things, you're able to grow and learn and connect with people through those embarrassing moments.
Erik Weihenmayer: Yeah, I love it. And, the other thing that struck me is, man, do you have good friends. And that's not just luck, that is not luck. That is something that you put out there in the world and people respond to it and want to be a part of your life and want to support you and have you support them.
And I love the stories about your friends. it started in grade school, you had even great friends, right?,
Zach Anner: Yeah,My best friend to this day is somebody that I met in third grade, and we've been friends for, over 30 years now, Andrew Martina, and he was the person who was actually assisting me when I won my show from Oprah.
My friends always, we always had similar senses of humor. So it was always through laughter that we bonded. And I would find, people who felt, a little bit like social outcasts. And we would geek out about nerdy stuff. But all throughout my life, it's been, I have, an incredible community of friends and mentors and family who've supported me and, you know, I wouldn't be where I am with, without them. And the thing that I've realized recently about inclusion is it's not just about the person that you're trying to include. Inclusion means that you don't miss out on the amazing things that the people you're trying to include bring to the table.
It's a two way street. And I used to feel like there's no way I'll be able to repay my friends for all that they've given me. All the amazing things they've tried. they've literally carried me up mountains so that I could, you know have a once in a lifetime experience. I've gone up mountains, I've gone on volcanoes piggybacking on my friends.
Erik Weihenmayer: Didn't you do something in Canada? Yeah. Am I remembering the book right? They like carried you up to this like tree house or something? Yeah. This crazy tree house up there. Yeah. Tell us about that one. That was a cool story. Seemed sort of dangerous.
Zach Anner: In the mountains of Whistler. And nobody knew where it was, and we were doing this travel series called Riding Shotgun where we basically got all of our places that we were going to go from Redditors and they were going to this, to try and find this tree house that this guy had built out in the woods.
And, uh, so we decided to follow them and search for it and they found it. And it was like, it was very unsafe for me to, but I went piggyback while my friend Aaron crawled across these like steps of that was like, we're over a ravine, basically.
Erik Weihenmayer: I spent a lot of time in the mountains and I was a little nervous reading that part.
Zach Anner: It was very, it was not a safe thing to do, but I'm so grateful that I have friends that are probably, they probably now have back problems because they've been carrying me places. But I like to say that I don't just have amazing friends. I like to think that I've earned amazing friends. And I think, like that was a journey that was made richer because we were all doing it together.
Erik Weihenmayer: And part of your team, you had great parents. I know your dad passed away. Mine did too, a couple of years ago. And my dad was like my absolute hero and role model and mentor. It sounds like your parents were fantastic.
Zach Anner: Yeah. And they really,they didn't, uh, you know, the marriage didn't work out, but as parents, they complimented each other so well.
And my dad was just so supportive in the way, my mom supported a lot of the writing and my dad was, he was a videographer and he was also very much a, like, an inventor and a builder and he would build all sorts of crazy things for me. He would build bags on my chair that were like, when I wanted to go to school and have, be able to get my books out independently, he built a set of rails with a bag on a pulley system so that I could pull the bag around and get my books out.
And he made like, when I wanted to be a filmmaker, he made a monopod on my chair so that I could have a camera dolly that was also my wheelchair and. Made, shoes that I, dress shoes that I could put on myself. And,it was the first person that like introduced me to bidet technology, and made, all sorts of stuff.
And now that he's gone, it's just like the person that I could always count on to come up with creative solutions to, my problems is gone. And it's sort of like losing the method to build the pyramids. It's it's lost to time now and nobody else can be that creative.
Yeah.
Erik Weihenmayer: It's hard to fill those shoes.
Zach Anner: Yeah. So it's a huge loss, but I'm so grateful that I got even just a bit of like his creative spirit. I never met your dad, but
Erik Weihenmayer: I freaking love your dad, man. He's just, yeah. And your mom.
Zach Anner: Yeah, my mom is the one that really instilled that sort of, creativity and encouraged me to write.
And she's a playwright and, and teaches, always taught acting and creative writing. And she really brought that artistic flair to my work and they're just, had really incredible parents. And that, really does just make all the difference. And I know not everybody has it, but I
Erik Weihenmayer: You and I are lucky in that way, for sure.
Yeah. So you go on and you make this video, obviously, you know, this, this amazing thing that happens with Oprah, and you get, on this, a contest, right? The next TV star. And, and you're just going through all these, like, auditions and everything, and just hard trials and tribulations. Seems like really long days.
And I just thought to myself, you put yourself in this really uncomfortable, as you mentioned earlier, scary situations, having to confront all your fears. You've already touched on this, but maybe just like a little bit more, like, why do you put yourself out there, in that way? You know what I mean?
When, so many other people with cerebral palsy or blind or people with these major challenges in front of them, it's easy to just, like, hide, right? It's easy to just hang out in your house and live this quiet life on the sidelines.
Zach Anner: Well, I think maybe it's a misconception that's what people want to do, but I've learned as I've gotten older, There are so many things that are not set up for people with disabilities that I think more than people wanting to sit on the sidelines, that society is unwelcoming and not set up well for them to succeed that's Right.
Like, just going about your daily life is the challenge, right? And so I was, I have to give credit to, for that show in particular. The Oprah Network really worked with me to make sure that I could excel and use my talents rather than be hindered by my challenges.So like before we even did that reality show, there was an inclusion and accessibility expert who was also a wheelchair user who spoke with me for five hours, going through how the show would be set up so that it wouldn't look like they were adapting it.
But so that it could be organically inclusive. So when I showed up to set on the stage, there was a ramp that everybody used. You know, it wasn't like Zach goes on this entrance and everyone else. So they really considered it from every angle.
Erik Weihenmayer: Kudos to Oprah and her team, man. That's great.
Zach Anner: Yeah. Wonderful work. And like in terms of why I have that perspective, I just always wanted to be somebody front and center. I'm a performer. I wanted to make people laugh. And if I could, you know, I wasn't going to not do that because I had cerebral palsy. In fact, like using cerebral palsy through the lens of humor, like it's just another tool in the toolbox.
It's not something that is that works against who I am. It's part of it.
Erik Weihenmayer: Beautiful. and that show, I know, Rolling With Zach, you have great gratitude, I'm sure, what an amazing opportunity, but, and again, I'm, not to focus too much on the negative, but the show, at least the way I understand the book, it wasn't all you wished it could have been.
So, my first book, they made it into a movie, and, the reason I'm mentioning this is because in my book, there is a scene where, like, one of my girlfriends, I was really afraid because I had glass eyes, I had prosthetic eyes, and, um, she didn't know it. And this moment where I was like, I'm going to tell her.
I'm going to rise up and have courage and tell her that this is like a greatest fear for me to show her this. And I popped my eyes out in front of her and she still loved me. And I kind of got a feeling, if I'm not like, overconnecting, that might have been maybe the challenge, because the show maybe just didn't go far enough in terms of being real, like showing the real stuff, I guess. Is that fair or am I totally off?
Zach Anner: I think, again, deep gratitude, and also this was many years ago, and I think in terms of inclusion and representation, we've definitely come a long way, and the nuanced way that we've, that we're able to portray it and talk about it. But these days, you would look back at that, that, Oprah show and the, probably say it was a little inspiration porny, right?
Because it wasn't, it was more about, you know, let's, Isn't it amazing that this guy with cerebral palsy is doing all those things? Whereas initially I had pitched a show that was like, Okay, the world is inaccessible, and we want to show that and show that we can have a great time anyway. And I think maybe what I realized is, okay, so the show wasn't produced by Oprah herself. Obviously they had a production company make it and that production company was very concerned with making it look like everything was set up perfectly because they didn't want to show all the hurdles because that makes them look like bad producers.
Erik Weihenmayer: Which like the glass eyes is it's it's the gritty stuff, the hardship that, you know, is the story, is the magic that you are pushing through it.
Zach Anner: I'm assuming that scene did not make it into the movie.
Erik Weihenmayer: Did not make it into the movie. They were too scared. They were too scared.
Zach Anner: And
Erik Weihenmayer: They're like, Oh, we can't show that. You know what I mean? And so I imagine some of that was going on, right? let's gloss over some of these things a little bit because it's just easier for people to watch or something.
Zach Anner: Yeah. And let's play the, let's play the sad music or the inspirational music. And I feel like it's a natural human response to want to put, people in these boxes and think that there is only one way that you can relate if you're an able bodied person to disabled stories or stories of people with disabilities.
And I think it was just, Nowadays, I feel like if we made the show, they would be much more receptive to the gritty reality, because the disability experience is the human experience, right? It's maybe, obviously I don't have the experience of having to show a girl from my glass eyes, but I, I had that same feeling when I was having to talk about my insecurities around my body.
And I think the assumption is that, oh, audiences aren't ready for it. But audiences aren't ready for anything until you show it to them and then they're able to find that point of connection and humanity. So I think I don't fault the network or the production company at all for like wanting to make a show where I have to say as someone with cerebral palsy, I never thought I could climb a mountain when actually I always thought I could, but I do... I actually appreciate now that I'm able to look back at my own work and cringe a little bit because that means that I've grown.
Do you feel that way at all? I know you wrote your book many years ago now.
Erik Weihenmayer: I cringe at half the stuff I did in my 20s. Oh, big time. Yeah. No, exactly. I think that's a sign of growing.
Yeah. And you eventually made that grittier series, Riding Shotgun, and that seemed like it was a lot of fun and a lot more to your vision. You also, I remember, talking about auditioning for a, like a TV show. And there was a really interesting story you told about how, like in the world of Hollywood, the way they portray people with disabilities, it's kind of one dimensional, right?
Like something about you being locked in a port a potty or something like that.
Zach Anner: Oh yeah. I auditioned for the role of Artie on Glee. And have the worst singing voice known to man. So it all worked out.
Erik Weihenmayer: You tried to sing some Boss, I remember.
Zach Anner: Yeah, yeah, yeah, there's, it's, I believe that audition video of me singing Bruce Springsteen is still online somewhere. Please don't find it.
Erik Weihenmayer: Yeah, no, everyone go watch that.
Zach Anner: But yeah, I remember reading the pilot and there's a scene where this character who uses a wheelchair is being bullied and stuffed in a porta potty and then the quarterback comes in and saves him. And so often people with disabilities are, just thrown into shows to make, to give able bodied people, a hero moment, of Oh, I have such empathy and compassion. And really
Erik Weihenmayer: The good guy saves the person with the disability.
Zach Anner: Yeah.it's either we're inspiring or we're,people that need to be saved. but the reality is we're as complicated and flawed as any other human being.
Yeah, but I really like the way you said that. I guess I'd describe it as sometimes a person with a disability is put up there as like a prop to flush out character traits and other people rather than being an evolved human being themselves, Yeah, we are a device. To say something about other characters, and often, the disabled character is, not fleshed out and the one personality trait they have is, oh, how they deal with their disability. And it's been really nice writing, for TV and film now for the better part of 10 years to just see that needle move in the right direction and to be able to contribute to writing more nuanced characters and write.
I've been able to write a few disabled characters that are assholes. And I'm not sure if you can say that, but you can believe it. But, because I, that, that's been my experience is the ratio of people who are jerks, who are disabled is just about the same as the able bodied population. And it's me being able to highlight that I feel is real progress.
Erik Weihenmayer: Yeah, now I remember this blind guy telling me one time, he said, blind people, if you were in the line at the grocery store, you'd have all blind people. You'd have big ones, small ones, old ones, young ones. You'd have jerks. You'd have nice ones. There's no like common denominator except the fact that you're blind.
And, I like that.
Zach Anner: And what do you, what would you say is the biggest perspective shift that you've had that your disability has given you?
Erik Weihenmayer: for me, I think it was the fact that when I was young, like you, I didn't want help. I didn't want to be seen as like this.I guess if I'm getting all dramatic,like an egg that gets cracked in the middle of the hallway and everyone's kind of walking around it, they don't know how to deal with it, you know?
And I, I felt very self conscious. And I realized, like you maybe, that I had to make my disability a part of me. I had to get comfortable with it. It maybe wasn't the most important thing in my life, but it had to, I had to find a place for it. And then once I got comfortable with it, I realized that people reflect you like a mirror.
And, if you're comfortable and cool with it, everyone else pretty much winds up being cool with it too. And,so I'm much more comfortable with myself as I'm, as an older human.
Zach Anner: Yeah. I've been on a similar journey of, especially in regards to accepting help too, because I don't know if this was the narrative when you were in school, but the whole, the whole mantra was independence and I don't need anyone's help to do anything.
Now I'm much more, when someone offers me help, I just say, thanks. and I go on about my day. Because I know, there are certain things that I really, uh, take pride in doing and doing independently. And then being able to acknowledge, okay, there are some things that are a little bit trickier for me to do.
And I could do that. I could spend an hour doing this task or I could ask someone else for help and they could do it in five minutes. And I can actually focus on my passions, the things that I'm good at, what I actually bring as a human being that I enjoy doing.
Erik Weihenmayer: Yeah.
Zach Anner: So I think like that's been a real sort of, Paradigm shift for me, like probably didn't even start until I was 30 of like, Oh, I can accept help and not feel like it lessens me as a person because I need that help.
Erik Weihenmayer: Well, that kind of is an entree to like, the other part of the book, which I loved. And you mentioned it earlier, getting comfortable with your body. First of all, it was really beautiful. You wrote about, hey, as a young man, we're looking for girlfriends, we're looking for love, for sex, you know, and you wrote about your first sexual experience.
You weren't super graphic about it, but it was really beautiful and poignant as you got comfortable with your own body, right, as a person with a disability. God, I just found that so powerful because you know, I'm a woman, I'm a woman, in a way, some people maybe think that's like taboo or something. But I thought that was like the best part of the, of the story.
Zach Anner: Wow. That's really, lovely to hear. I mean, that was kind of why we wrote it. that was the most, probably the thing I was most scared to talk about. Of course. But inthis journey of not just accepting your body, but enjoying it when you kind of have to undo the narrative that's been forced on you since birth of, whether people want to do it or not, the narrative is there's something wrong with your body. and just learn, learning that not only is there, not something wrong with it, but there's a way to enjoy it and live in it and accept it and be at peace with it. And another important thing that I cannot stress enough about to all the young men out there who are, I just,haven't had girlfriends and are just like what's wrong with me because I don't have a girlfriend.
Maybe stop looking for a girlfriend and start looking for a person that you connect with. I got it so far into my own head about it that I realized I had stopped. looking for a person and started looking for an idea. And when you are just looking for any girl to validate you, then you're not really seeing them as a human being.
And that was something that I had to learn much later. It's no, I'm looking for a partner, not just a, a girlfriend or a box to check. And there were probably times in high school and college when I was missing out on, on great friendships because I was trying to say, Oh, if this girl doesn't like me, then there's no reason to, meet this human being where they are.
And I, I don't think you should close any doors or feel bad about being on your own timeline, but just make sure that you're, as you're looking for your partner or someone to connect with romantically, that you're not also discriminating and limiting what your connections with people can be because you want to check off a box.
Erik Weihenmayer: Zach, that's magic. Yeah, I think people need to know that. The other thing I, um, thought really cool about that experience with your first girlfriend, was you had to figure out how to like, uh, interact and support each other in a relationship. Because I know as a blind person, like girlfriends I've had in the past, it's easy to let them do everything, and you were talking about this earlier,this idea of just accepting help in a graceful way, which is perfect.
But you started feeling self conscious. Like, you guys went off to Maine, and she's like the one bringing groceries back and forth. And look, maybe you have to have a disability to relate to that story. But like, I was viscerally relating to it, because I'm like, yeah, I've been in that situations where, I don't want my girlfriend to turn into, like, a caretaker, right?
Yeah. And so I found that super amazing, yeah. Talk about your learnings there.
Zach Anner: What I learned, with Jillian, my first girlfriend, is that there were so many things that I didn't see that people had done for me my whole life and not brought up to me that they were doing them in service of the narrative of independence and self reliance.
And so I was just sort of blind to all the normal, everyday household stuff that she was doing. And she wound up feeling overwhelmed and feeling like a caretaker. There are many relationships where your significant other is a caretaker, but it's like finding that balance is key and what I've learned, in, in my current relationship and in the intervening years between Jillian and my now fiance Carly, is the communication is key and setting these expectations and also continually checking in and listening to each other. I felt before I was in a relationship, I had built up this idea of being in one and that I had to be perfect and fill that role of what I thought a boyfriend was. But I realized, a little too late that the most important thing is to communicate with your partner, to discuss these things, to talk about them out in the open so that that no one's feeling either insecure or overwhelmed.
And those discussions and sometimes just naming them and speaking them out loud takes away a lot of the fear, a lot of the messiness, andit also gives you the opportunity to realize and acknowledge what you're bringing to the relationship. Maybe the division of labor isn't always equal, but just being able to hear and, and accept that you are bringing a lot to a relationship has also been a journey for me.
So anyone that's got that fear, I would just say, have the conversation and have it often. And, check in with your partner about what they need. And one of the things that was really important, but hard in my relationship with Jillian is just seeing all of these things that I didn't ever see other people doing for the first time.
And now, because of that experience, Carly still does a lot for me, but I'm able to appreciate it and acknowledge it on such a deep, deeper level because there isn't fear around it. , It's like an important but hard experience to have. And I'm sure in your, relationships now, you know yourself well enough and know your own worth to be able to acknowledge the things that maybe you thought would, make you less than, uh, you know, in your early relationships.
Erik Weihenmayer: Absolutely. Yes. Um, and Zach,I remember this part of your book where you talked about in Austin, you were making these really cool shows and things like that in college, but your humor sort of began to change. I know humor is like a constant part of your life, right? But it began to evolve, your humor, right?
Tell us how your humor has evolved. I mean, it's not like probably you meant to become a role model or an advocate for other people, but by the very nature of your life and your boldness and all the cool things you've done, you are an advocate. You are a role model.
So how has it all changed?Now that you're, I think you're in your forties.
Zach Anner: I, I'm 39.
Erik Weihenmayer: Okay. Okay. Not quite yet. Almost,
Zach Anner: But basically, yeah.
Erik Weihenmayer: Yeah.
Zach Anner: So I started essentially as an insult comic who would just try to get a rise out of people. And what I was trying to do back in the early days in college was just like, shake things up and take whatever, misconceptions people would have about the disabled as being like innocent and helpless and say, the most audacious thing possible to like, change that perspective.
And. And then I realized that I didn't feel good about saying things just get, to get a rise out of people that I didn't actually believe that were maybe funny in the moment, but that I still lose sleep over. And I realized that why are you trying to change your personality just to, like, why would I change who I am and live my life for people who would assume the least of me?
You know, like, like, why am I trying to say I'm not this? Rather than defining who I wanted to be.I'm much more positive these days. I have a, I still have, I still think, I always think of the worst thing you could say, and then I stop myself and I say, what's the positive way to reframe this and it's as much for my audience and the people that like my stuff as it is for the way that it makes me feel. And I think like,they say, don't punch down. And I tend to like, think about, I don't want to, if a joke ruins someone's day or if it's, if it,hurts someone's feelings, it's not worth it. There are other jokes. That's the thing about when you're really creative and you can only rely on a certain type of humor that like, hurts people's feelings, ruins their day, bums them out, then you're not, you're probably not as creative as you think you are. like, yeah,
Like you're always gonna offend somebody. But if I think about it, if I have a joke and I think about it and I'm like, this.this might be on the edge, or this might hurt somebody, I just don't do it. I've had tweets and jokes before where I didn't consider what the implications might be, and people have called me out, and I've, engaged with them and I've said, I'm sorry.
I'm, I haven't, I didn't consider your perspective before I posted this, but now that I know, I'm, I'll take it down or I won't say it. And it's really easy to apologize and acknowledge someone else's humanity. People make it seem like it's so hard and people are so sensitive. But I really don't think they are, and I think it's great to, to be able to have that dialogue and to be able to change.
Erik Weihenmayer: And you definitely have and evolved. It's really cool to have seen your career and how you have evolved and grown and just, it's beautiful to get to talk to you today, Zach. I really appreciate your time and your passion for life and your boldness.
It's fantastic. Love to have you part of the No Barriers community. It's, it's, it's powerful. So thank you so much for your time, friend.
Zach Anner: It's an honor. It really is a privilege, so much.
Erik Weihenmayer: Awesome. No barriers to everyone.
Didrik Johnck: The production team behind this podcast includes producer Didrik Johnck. That's me. An audio engineer, Tyler Kottman. Special thanks to the Dan Ryan band for our intro song, Guidance. And thanks to all of you for listening. If you enjoyed this show, please subscribe, share it. And hey, we'd be thrilled for a review.
Show notes can be found at NoBarriersPodcast.com. There's also a link there to shoot me an email with any suggestions or guest ideas for the show. Thanks so much and have a great day.
