No Barriers Podcast Episode 197: Scott Lehmann & Shayna Unger

about the episode

You can’t hear. You speak with your hands. How do you function in this world? Oh you want to climb mountains? The biggest ones in the planet?  You rely on sign language, so how are you going to sign with oversized mittens or in a white out with snow coming at ya sideways? Oh you’re not sure? Ah… too risky for you. Better find something else to do… Our guests heard these questions and concerns over and over again… and you know, they didn’t have the answers. What Scott & Shayna did have was a curiosity and drive to figure it out along the way. And indeed they did, right to the top of the highest mountain in the world, Everest. 

In this interview you’ll hear their story, from being born profoundly deaf, meeting each other in school, the romance that followed, becoming educators, then mountaineers, and now advocates for the deaf and hard of hearing. They’re especially passionate about making the outdoors more accessible. 

Get ready for tales of courage, adaptability, and the collaborative spirit that defines the No Barriers mindset.

Connect with Scott & Shayna:

Instagram https://www.instagram.com/scottandshayna/
Website: https://www.scottshayna.com/

Episode Transcript

Podcast Ep196 Scott & Shayna

Didrik Johnck: You can't hear, you can't speak. How do you function in this world? Oh, you want to climb mountains, the biggest ones in the planet. You rely on sign language. How are you going to sign with oversized mittens or in a whiteout with snow coming at you sideways? Ah, you're not sure? Too risky for you. Better find something else to do.
Our guests heard these questions and concerns over and over again. And you know, they didn't have the answers. What Scott and Shayna did have was a curiosity and drive to figure it out along the way. And indeed they did, right to the top of the highest mountain in the world, Everest. In this interview, you'll hear their story from being born profoundly deaf, meeting each other in school, the romance that followed, becoming educators, then mountaineers, and now advocates for the deaf and hard of hearing.
They're especially passionate about making the outdoors more accessible. Get ready for tales of courage, adaptability, and the collaborative spirit that defines the No Barriers mindset. All right, time to join host Erik Weihenmayer with guests, Shayna Unger and Scott Lehmann over in the studio. I'm producer Didrik Johnck, and this is the No Barriers podcast.

Erik Weihenmayer: It's easy to talk about the successes, but what doesn't get talked about enough is the struggle. My name is Erik Weihenmayer. I've gotten the chance to ascend Mount Everest, to climb the tallest mountain in every continent, to kayak the Grand Canyon, and I happen to be blind. It's been a struggle to live what I call a No Barriers life, to define it.
To push the parameters of what it means. And part of the equation is diving into the learning process and trying to illuminate the universal elements that exist along the way. In that unexplored terrain, between those dark places we find ourselves in in the summit, exists a map. That map, that way forward is what we call No Barriers.

Hey everyone, this is Erik Weihenmayer. Welcome to another episode of No Barriers. and I'm excited today to have two guests on, Shayna and Scott. You guys are amazing. I can't wait to dive into your story.

ASL Translator: Yeah. Hello, Erik. Shayna here. Thank you so much for having us. We're so excited to be here and to chat with you, share our experience with you. We know we have some similar experiences that we share, so we're excited to talk to you.

Erik Weihenmayer: Yeah. We run in the same circles. We have some mutual friends like Rob Pism, who's one of your guys mentors, and he's a good friend of mine as well, so we have that connection. We have the Everest connection. We have all things, all kinds of things that we're going to dive into today.

ASL Translator: Yeah. Yeah, we can't wait.

Erik Weihenmayer: Yeah, so let me start with this, just to clarify with our audience. So how are you guys communicating today? Because you are not obviously listening to my voice. So tell me how this works on this podcast format.
ASL Translator: Scott here. Yeah, well, in the beginning I did get a question from Erik asking if we read lips.
We both cannot read lips. We don't have any skills, to read lips, but we do use AmErikan Sign Language and we have an American Sign Language interpreter. Her name is Erika and you hear her voice right now. And she is using ASL to translate to us and then whatever we're signing, she translates back into English. And so that's how we are communicating right now on the video screen.
Erik Weihenmayer: Awesome. Well, kudos to Erika as well. I mean, that's pretty amazing and fluid to be able to listen and interpret that. So, we'll be a good team today. I was saying earlier before we started that this has got to be a first in history, a blind guy interviewing two deaf folks.
ASL Translator: Yeah, It's pretty cool, Shayna's saying, so cheers to that.
Erik Weihenmayer: Alright, so I just want to dive into, like, I think, just the most wonderful part of your story, and that is, how did you two meet? You guys have such a, from reading everything about you, have such a beautiful love story. Sorry to be cheesy, but, man, I want to hear all about how you guys met and so forth.
Alright.
ASL Translator: Well, Scott here. I always tell people that I'll let Shayna do that part. She's better at telling that story than I am.
Erik Weihenmayer: Yeah.
ASL Translator: And Shayna here. We actually met at a deaf school where we grew up in Frederick, Maryland. It's called the Maryland School for the Deaf. And I was 14 and Scott was 17.
And so I was a freshman and he was a senior in high school and we met and we liked each other, but you know, I was still very young and he was going off to college. So we knew each other, but then three years later, I went to Gallaudet university, which is a deaf, all deaf university in Washington, DC. And he was there as well.
So that's. when our story together started, and we've been dating ever since. And I'm 32 and he's now 35. So we've known each other for more than half of our lives now.
Erik Weihenmayer: Nice. He's an old guy. You're dating an old guy.
ASL Translator: I keep him young.
Erik Weihenmayer: Nice. So what, like, attracted you to each other? what, tell me, what drew you to each other in that story?
ASL Translator: Scott here. I always saw her as, I always saw Shayna as being really full of life. She was always up for anything and me, I'm an ideas person. I'm always coming up with some sort of crazy idea and I ask her and she's always down.
And so it was a perfect match. we worked together really well. and we'd go on these different crazy trips. which turned to expeditions and we just really enjoy doing that together.
Erik Weihenmayer: What about you, Shayna?
ASL Translator: Yeah, Shayna here. I think for me, you know, at first I was like, Ooh, wow. He's a senior.
And I was, you know, I was a new freshman. He's cute. He's still cute, but at the time he was really cute. And then over the years,just like Scott mentioned, he's always full of ideas, and he's always coming up with something cool or crazy or fun to do, and that was always exciting for me, and we work well together.
And he has so much patience, and we always make sure that everything works out logistically, and then I always, jump in on the ideas, and we've really been a good team. Yeah. And did we envision ourselves climbing mountains in the beginning? Definitely not. We did not think we would be where we are today.
Erik Weihenmayer: Scott, patience. That's a good quality. I am the opposite of you. that's my biggest weakness. I'm not very patient. So good quality.
ASL Translator: Shayna is saying I'm not either. I'm not either. That's why I need him. .
Erik Weihenmayer: So when you guys were in school, you were at a deaf school. And I'll do a lot of this during this interview because, my experience as a blind person.
I'll compare some notes, but, and with blind folks, a lot of times we're mainstreamed. We go to, sighted schools. so tell me how it works in the Deaf community generally, or is there no, there's no way to generalize?
ASL Translator: Yeah, that's a good question. Shayna here. as a Deaf person, it really actually ranges on the spectrum.
There are some people who can hear well, they might be hard of hearing. They might be able to also speak well, and they may go to a mainstream school. it's a similar concept where they would go to a public school or hearing school. Some that are more profoundly deaf, they would go to a deaf school, but somewhere that's right in the middle is they might go to a school that has a deaf program.
So it would still be considered a public school, but they have a deaf program within that school with maybe 10 or so students or less. And then on the other end of the spectrum is us, who are both profoundly deaf, so they would go to a Deaf school, usually in that state. So that means that all of the teachers use American Sign Language, all of the students are Deaf, and they use American Sign Language.
And that's where we both went. We went to a Deaf school in Maryland.
Erik Weihenmayer: Sounds like there's a lot of advantages to that, right? Because everyone's signing, probably every it's easy to communicate, your teachers know how to communicate. It just sounds like there'd be less barriers,in that way of going to school.
ASL Translator: yeah. I And every deaf person has their preference, Shayna is saying, but for us, yeah, it was definitely an experience of having less barriers. We felt very normal at our school because everyone was signing, everyone was using sign language. The teachers, even if they were hearing, they would use sign, but we also had deaf teachers as well.
So for us, we felt so normal.And it felt like there were less barriers there at school than there actually are out in the real world.
Erik Weihenmayer: Hey everybody, this is Erik, and I want to take a little break from our interview to tell you about No Barriers. Obviously, we're interviewing these amazing No Barriers pioneers, but behind this podcast is an organization called No Barriers, predicated on the idea that what's within us is stronger than what's in our way.
Our mission at No Barriers is to help people To break through barriers, to tap into the light of the human spirit, and to reclaim their lives, sometimes to reclaim their potential in the business of shifting mindsets. And it's proud work, and I hope you'll get involved, learn more about us. Check out our newsletter, NoBarriersUSA.org, NoBarriersPodcast. com.
Let me ask you this, words and phrases are always changing, like, when people would refer to someone, who can't see, you know, like they, they always ask me, is saying blind okay? Should I say visually impaired? there are certain words that have become passé or even offensive.
And so, you know, always back in the, old movies, you'd hear, deaf or mute, or you'd hear, you'd even say deaf and dumb. The dumb thing, it seems to me really offensive, right? Tell me what the vernacular is these days that, for people, is just FYI.
ASL Translator: Sure, yeah, this is Scott here, but you were spot on, with that. Back in the day, they used to say deaf and dumb or deaf mute.
Erik Weihenmayer: Yeah,
ASL Translator: Which is definitely something that we do not use anymore, right? And so we're still educating some people who have misconceptions of those words and so we tell them not to use that anymore, but the most appropriate would be deaf or... Okay, a lot of people use hearing impaired.
Erik Weihenmayer: Yeah,
ASL Translator: But that is something that we've also moved away from. We use deaf or hard of hearing Someone who can hear a little bit, and they can speak a little bit, they might use, a hearing aid or something like that. But hearing impaired is something that people do use, but it's not appropriate. We use deaf and hard of hearing. for you Erik, we're curious, what is the appropriate vernacular, that you would say for someone?
Erik Weihenmayer: I always tease people when they ask me that. I just say, blind is fine. blind is great. I can't see. I'm blind. I like to just attack things kind of head on.
ASL Translator: Yeah, yeah, definitely.
Erik Weihenmayer: Yeah, don't get fancy. Don't say a person of sightlessness.
ASL Translator: Yeah, yeah. Right. Too fancy. Like, I often tell people, Scott's saying, It's better to just ask
Erik Weihenmayer: than
ASL Translator: to assume. Because, you know, if we're completely open and we're, we, Are fine with you asking us. What would you how would you like to be called or referred to and We're fine with the word deaf.
Erik Weihenmayer: Is there a way to reference? Like you guys you sign instead of speaking What would be the phrase there? Would you say nonverbal not like nonverbal doesn't seem right because you are verbal you're you know you communicate perfectly fine. But so how would you say that piece?
ASL Translator: I think oftentimes, Shayna is saying, you know, it's funny because a lot of people think because we can't hear, we can't speak. As in our voice box doesn't work. Like we are like, literally can't make any sounds, but I actually think that deaf people generally are most of the loudest people out there because they can't hear how loud they are. We still make noise. And we just don't use our voice box, but we use sign language or we just say signing.
We use sign to communicate because oftentimes people will think that like our voice box is broken, but it's not.
Erik Weihenmayer: Alright, let's move into climbing, right? Tell me how you got into this crazy pursuit of mountain climbing. It sounds like that wasn't, something you guys grew up doing. Like me, I grew up in Connecticut. It's as flat as a pancake. So, for me, I was, like, the first person in my family to climb. How about for you two?
ASL Translator: Actually, for us, it's the same. Scott saying we both are, to be honest, we are the first people in our community to really get out there and climb. We never had any role models and our parents didn't know how to climb or do anything like that.
And it all started back when I was about 23 years old, Scott saying. So that was right after college. I'd finished college and I was with my two other deaf friends and the three of us did a road trip across the U. S. and we wanted to go out west. And we had this old Toyota Corolla with about 200, 000 miles on it and we were just, you know, chasing the American dream.
We wanted to get out there and that was It was my first time seeing Colorado, seeing Utah, seeing the big mountains that were in our backyard and I had no idea about. So that was at 23 years old, I started doing some hikes here and there. I did some backcountry backpacking, trips and little by little, we did a bunch of stuff over those three months.
And then we saw Mount Rainier in Washington. And we all said, Oh my gosh, let's do that. Let's summit at that. So we wanted to go and take a class and there was our first barrier because when we went to the class, there was no way for us to communicate. That was our biggest issue was how would we communicate?
So we knew that we need sign language interpreters, but the problem is sign language interpreters are not free. And this would be a one week class. So, that's seven full days and, on top of the class because the class costs money as well. So that was not an option for us as recent college grads. So, you know, that was basically our first barrier.
So we said, okay, what are we going to do? So we decided to just climb Mount Rainier all by ourselves, the three of us. We showed up on the spot and we put on our crampons for the first time. It was awkward.
Erik Weihenmayer: It's great to be young and dumb.
ASL Translator: Yeah, yeah, exactly. I always tell people, ignorance is bliss sometimes in this place.
So I remember that feeling when we showed up on the mountain, we put on our crampons and honestly, I was struggling because I didn't know how to adjust it properly. I didn't know how to tie everything properly. And we saw a father and his son together. And the father was explaining to the son and teaching him who was about nine or 10 years old, how to put these crampons on and how to do it efficiently.
And I was like, wow, a nine year old knows more than I do. That was quite a humbling experience. So I had to ask the father, Hey, can you teach me how? And the dad looked at me and he's what are you doing here? You don't know how to put these on,and you're on Mount Rainier. So it was, it was embarrassing to say the least.
It was an embarrassing moment for me, but I actually learned how, because I did ask him and then we got to about halfway, I would say. We really didn't get that far up the mountain. And we said, no, there's no way we're doing this. This is hard. This is pretty dangerous. So we went back down, we were freezing.
And after that, I just decided that I'm going to self teach myself everything and watch every YouTube video that I can. And I did that and picked up a bunch of stuff. And then along the way, Shayna joined me on our trips and journeys. And then, she learned a lot, and that's, you know, we've gotten to where we are now.
Erik Weihenmayer: Amazing. So cool. You mentioned those barriers, right? Like you can't have, it's expensive to have an interpreter like at a climbing clinic for a week. What other barriers are there when you are deaf and you're trying to learn, you're trying to master a very complicated subject like mountain climbing?
I'll tell you, for me as a blind person, learning to ski was really hard because I can't, look at really good skiers and just copy them. I can't look at, the way, somebody's body moves up a rock face and then emulate that. So those would be my barriers. I imagine there's got to be a lot of barriers to the learning process when you're deaf.
ASL Translator: It's Shayna here. Yeah, I think, or when I think about it, it's pretty cool because we actually learn how to climb so much differently, where you would probably rely more on your auditory senses, whereas I rely more on my visual senses. So my issue or our issue is that we're constantly missing out on that auditory information.
So every time we go to an expedition, there will be people talking or discussing different routes. How they've climbed it, the weather report, just so many details that are being spoken between people and we can't hear anything. So we miss out on all that information that could benefit us as climbers.
So we really have to watch people and, study them and see what they're doing, how they're tying something on. I'm like, Oh, okay. That's how they did that. You know, we even have this one story when we were on Aconcagua, we were trying to figure out if, the next day was a good weather window to climb or not, and there were a bunch of people around us and they were all talking, so what we did was at 2 in the morning, we opened up our tent and we went and saw if the next tent's light was on or not.
If their light was on, that meant that they were planning on climbing that day, and if their light was off, that means that they were still sleeping and it was not going to be a good weather window the next day. So we checked every 30 minutes from two to 4 a. m. that they were not climbing that day.
And we went back to sleep. And then we did that night after night after night until it was time. So we essentially more so study our surroundings more, than others, but we do, because we do miss out on that information that's being spoken between people.
Erik Weihenmayer: So it sounds like you have a lot of systems for working around that, as I just heard.
Talk about off the mountain. There must be so many really cool adaptations that you two have either learned or created. I heard a podcast where you guys were talking about, playing basketball, use that example. And, you wouldn't be able to hear the whistle, right? So, tell me about some of the cool adaptations that you guys utilize in your lives.
ASL Translator: Yeah, well, I think there's actually a lot that we use, Scott's saying. A lot of them really depend on different visual cues as well as sensory cues. So that will sort of fill in the gaps of what we can't hear. So we will have to do, like double work, like essentially for an alarm clock in the morning, we have two different options.
One is to have the lights flash on when the alarm goes off. So to have like a big light flashing, or, we have this sort of vibration device that you put under your mattress or put under your pillow. When the alarm goes off, it shakes. Yeah, yeah, so because we don't have any sound, those will then mimic, an alarm clock for us.
So there's different sort of modifications or adaptations that we use to replace that auditory input that allow us to function properly. But, at the end of the day, the goal for us as deaf people is to feel like we are a part of somewhere and feel like we're normal, just like everyone else.
Like if we want to go out and we want to be part of a specific space and we want to feel normal there.
Erik Weihenmayer: What about, like back to that analogy of playing sports,what would, how would you know back in school, when there was a whistle, assuming they wouldn't blow a whistle, they would like throw something at you or maybe they'd throw a tomato at your head?
ASL Translator: No, no, no. Well, Shane is saying, we still always have a whistle, but we typically watch people and their body language.
If a whistle is blown, everyone will stop on the court.
Erik Weihenmayer: Got it.
ASL Translator: Everyone stops and looks at the ref. So you will see everyone stopping. You'll see their head all turning in one direction and you turn in that direction and you'll see the referee.
Something like that. And Scott's saying, there's a funny story. I remember when I was young, there was a referee on the court and they were having a hard time stopping the young kids playing basketball, the young deaf kids. So they brought this huge towel, so whenever they, the whistle wasn't working, they would take this towel and spin it around their head, and all the kids would look.
And, if there was this big white towel spinning, then they knew, to stop the game. And then Shayna is saying, yeah, and then when there's a deaf school against another deaf school, say there's all deaf players on the court, a whistle's not going to work at all. Sometimes the referees have to run into the court and wave their hands or they'll come and they'll tap us on the shoulder.
So we might just continue playing without realizing that there's been a foul or the game has stopped.
Erik Weihenmayer: So cool. So I know as a blind guy, like when I'm at Denver Airport, DIA, like just if I'm alone, like just finding the bathroom is tricky. It gives me a little bit anxiety. So after you guys graduate and left the school for the deaf and you go out into the world, there must, I got to imagine it's scary.
Maybe you guys are just full on adventurers and it's not scary to you, but it would seem to me that there must be things that would be potentially scary. You know, like an example, like you get pulled over because you're speeding a little bit, right? A cop comes and, he doesn't know you're deaf, right?
He could misinterpret that, like you're not cooperating or something. I'm wondering, there must be some scary stuff that you guys have experienced.
ASL Translator: Yeah, Shayna here, you brought up a good point. With being pulled over, there is definitely more anxiety that comes up because also usually a police officer will speak to you from maybe behind or behind sort of the window and they might say hands on the wheel or whatever that they're saying.
I don't know exactly what they're saying, but I will, have to wait for them to come into the sight and then also point to my ear. But not every police officer is going to know that I'm saying that I'm deaf, so I will keep, doing the sign of deaf and, I,there have been some situations where cops think that you're not cooperating and it can escalate and, sometimes things work out, but you do inherently have that fear a bit.
And Scott's adding yeah, I was thinking about me and just growing up with a deaf family. My mom, she's deaf. she can't hear at all. And she told me ever since I was little, she always said, be proud of yourself. Be proud of your identity. Be proud that you are deaf and you're different from everyone else.
So she set that mindset in us kids. And I always thought that was really important to,to And I also tell kids that we are giving presentations to that, we're not going to hear again. So be proud of who you are. And when you go out into the real world, I always remain proud of my Deaf identity and I want that for them too.
So now it's like, all right, be proud and also be bold. Let people know that I'm deaf. I'm not able to hear so I'm willing to work with you and ask me any questions that you may have.so that kind of tells them right away that you're comfortable with it. And I think that mindset is really important.
Erik Weihenmayer: I love that mindset. that's what we teach. That's one of the things we teach at No Barriers. This idea that, your challenge, it doesn't have to be a weakness. It can be a strength. It can be fuel. It can be purpose. because you guys have broken through barriers that most humans haven't. And, in a way, I always think I'm not thankful to be blind, but I'm thankful for the gifts that I've learned through being blind.
ASL Translator: Right. Right. Exactly. And Shayna is saying, I don't think I would be the person that I am today,if I didn't have my identity as a deaf person I'll always cherish that because it's who I am.
That's made me who I am today.
Erik Weihenmayer: By the way, here's a funny story of a time I got into trouble as a blind guy. I was on a Greyhound bus heading to some climb, and I was turning my head I was in the front row of the bus, and I was turning my head back because I knew there was a bathroom back there at the very back of the bus.
And I thought, I'd hear like the toilet flush, and that would give me a clue to where it was back there. And so I would turn my head and I would listen, and this guy was a couple seats behind me and he said, dude, if you don't stop looking at me, I'm going to kick your ass. And I thought, who's staring at this guy?
who would be stupid enough to stare at this guy and provoke him? And about the third time he said, dude, I'm gonna kick your ass, I realized, oh my god, he's looking at me. I'm, I must be staring at him, and I don't even know it. So I almost got beat up on a Greyhound bus.
ASL Translator: Oh my goodness. Yeah, no, I think it's funny because for us as deaf people, Shayna is saying, we cannot count how many times, even if we're on a trail, we're doing a hike or something.
And we're saying, excuse me, or people behind us are saying, excuse me, excuse me, excuse me, and we just keep walking. We don't move out of the way because we have no idea. And then they start to get really angry and they think that maybe we're just being a-holes for not moving out of the way. And I'm like, excuse me, and then they'll go by us and they just give us like such a dirty look.
And then we're signing and we're like, Oh, you're deaf. Oh, oh, okay. And then they feel bad. I bet there have been many times when people are screaming at us from behind, and we just never have responded. And they just think that we're, you know, a holes.
Erik Weihenmayer: I've had the exact same thing when I'm hiking on a trail.
I don't hear somebody coming in front of me or moving, against me. And I don't move out of the way, and they just think, What a jerk! And they like, shove by me, so mad.
ASL Translator: What can you do?
Erik Weihenmayer: So to finish this topic, if you guys could wave a magic wand in the world and fix a problem or maybe create something new that would make your life easier. What do you think that could be?
ASL Translator: And this is Scott here. Yeah, even with a magic wand, I would never want to restore our hearing. So I think that's who we are. It's our identity. It's, we're proud of that. But one thing that I would love is that everyone knows how to sign.
Erik Weihenmayer: Yeah, right.
ASL Translator: And if everyone knew the language. I just think that would be a beautiful world if everyone knew sign. And, it's we could be. proud of our identity as a deaf person, and we could communicate with anyone efficiently. So I think that would be awesome.
Erik Weihenmayer: Yeah, I did a No Barriers youth trip, and one of our leaders was Mandy Harvey, who's a deaf musician.
Amazing lady. And she taught us all how to sign. And we had a deaf student with us as well. So those two taught us how to sign so we could communicate better throughout that. trip. We, trekked to the Mustang region of Nepal and it was such an amazing trip.
ASL Translator: Oh, wow. So nice. Yeah, no, it's Shayna here. I think once everyone knows sign, it's you could just, exchange information without, you know, the barriers, I guess, that we face.
That would be the ultimate dream for us, really.
Erik Weihenmayer: you guys are from multi generational deaf families, I read in one of the bios. So tell me exactly what that means. You're, both of your folks were deaf. And does that make your deafness hereditary in some way? tell me how that all fits together.
ASL Translator: Yeah, exactly. This is Scott here. So pretty much you hit the nail on the head. . So my mother's parents are deaf and then they had my mom and she's deaf, but also my dad is deaf. So then now I'm deaf.
So that's a third generation. So, you know, basically both of us, we never knew what sound sounded like. We never heard music. We, have no concept of sound, you know? So what we like to say is we'd never know the difference.
Erik Weihenmayer: Yeah. Right.
ASL Translator: It's always been the way that it is, for us, but I also want to say that is a rare thing.
Erik Weihenmayer: Yeah.
ASL Translator: So I want to say about 5 percent of deaf children come from deaf families. About 90 to 95 percent of deaf children are from hearing parents. Yeah, that's about 95%.
Erik Weihenmayer: Your guys family reunions must be really fun.
ASL Translator: Yeah, they are fun, and they're loud, Scott said. They're so loud because no one can hear themselves.
So we also have deaf, Shayna was saying, deaf nieces and nephews as well. So you know, it just, everyone's signing, everyone's deaf. We all have access to conversations and dialogue. It's really great. And Scott's saying, I have a funny story that I want to share. We actually,all got together, had a family reunion and with many deaf people there.
And, this one hearing friend of mine came. And before they, arrived, they thought that this was going to be the most quiet reunion they've ever been to. And when they got there, they were shocked because all the deaf people were banging on the tables to get, someone else's attention. They were clapping, maybe yelling. And they're like, Oh my gosh, it's loud in here. this isn't quiet at all. Yeah.
That's awesome. Yeah, it was really great.
Erik Weihenmayer: I, spoke at a school for the deaf one time, and my experience was so fun because my manager, Skyler, was with me and he was giving me a visual play by play. And the kids, were laughing and clearly telling jokes.
They were signing jokes. And then they'd all bust out laughing. And then they'd all look over to the other kid who just got teased or something. And then he would say something back, like a cool comeback, I'm assuming. And then they'd, all the kids would laugh again. And I thought it was so natural and fluid as these kids just busted each other's balls in this classroom setting.
And I thought, Wow, it doesn't really matter who you are. Kids are kids are kids, you know?
ASL Translator: Exactly. That's exactly right, Shayna is saying. Yeah, I think once we, have that ability to communicate, and we're able to interact with everyone else, we're just able to be ourselves. And kids can be a kid, just like every kid should be.
Erik Weihenmayer: I love
ASL Translator: that.
Actually, I'm curious, what deaf school did you speak at?
Erik Weihenmayer: Uh, it was in Knoxville, Tennessee.
ASL Translator: Oh.
Erik Weihenmayer: I can't remember the name, but yeah.
ASL Translator: We went there last year.
Erik Weihenmayer: Oh, wow. Pretty cool.
ASL Translator: Yeah, it was probably the Tennessee School for the Deaf. I believe.
Erik Weihenmayer: Tennessee School for the Deaf. That's it. That was it. Yeah. Nice.
ASL Translator: Yep. Yep. Yep. That's awesome.
Erik Weihenmayer: Well, I can't, I'd be remiss if I didn't ask you Everest questions. So here we go. Tell me about some of the challenges on Everest. Obviously, you can't see somebody signing when they're wearing gloves or mittens, right? I imagine that you have adaptations for that kind of communication as well.
Like, I know when I learned to waterski, if you're in trouble, you like maybe put your hands over your head, you know, you make big gestures, right? So that, you can communicate in a different way. So, yeah, tell me about some of those challenges on Everest and how you dealt with that.
ASL Translator: Yeah, this is Shayna here. So when we got to Everest for the first time, we, that was when we met our Sherpas. And we had two Sherpas for the both of us, or one each. And my first language is American Sign Language, and then my second language is written English and the same for Scott. And so the Sherpas, they have their indigenous Sherpa language, and then they have Nepalese, and then their third language is spoken English. And then written English, English is like fourth on the list, so they do not know much written English. So we were like, how are we going to communicate? In the beginning, we used our phones to do like a speech to text for them. And then we would type back, or they might speak in Nepalese and it would do the Google translate to very basic English.
And so we would just speak very basic English back and forth. So then we knew the higher and higher we get up the mountain, using a phone and then using it with gloves would be nearly impossible. There's just no way that we are going to take off a glove to then text. You know how cold it is. Uh, so you're not taking off a glove.
Erik Weihenmayer: You get frostbite fingers.
ASL Translator: Exactly, and we need our fingers. There's no way, we were going to take off those gloves. So,what we had to do, we thought, okay, let's teach them some basic signs. And we taught our Sherpas some basic signs. And we also taught them some, what you would call signals or gestures, like something that we could do from far away, a big gesture that would be able to either get someone's attention or say something really basic.
So, we would do would go over those, before we went on the mountain. And then also as we connected to a rope, say we couldn't get someone's attention, we created a sort of tugging on the rope, system. If you tug three times, that means I need your attention. Like, look, look back here.so we created these systems and we worked together and, when we did the acclimatization rotations,we would do those and then by the time we had to do the summit push, we were good.
We had our communication systems down and Scott saying yeah, and we, also created different placements that worked well for us. So one Sherpa would be in the front, it would be me and Shayna in the middle and another Sherpa on the back. So one like being the line leader and one being the caboose. So that anything happened, if there was some rock fall or ice fall or something that happened auditorily that we were not able to hear, the Sherpa from behind would be able to get our attention.
Or the Sherpa in the front could turn and get our attention to tell us to move quicker or to stop or there's something up ahead or next to us because we were not able to hear avalanches or any icefall. So setting that placement up for us as well was really important for our, just our vantage points while being on the mountains.
So just those modifications, and they were really very simple but they made it all possible.
Erik Weihenmayer: Did you guys have a lot of flack from people when you talked about climbing Everest? I know I had some, you know, most people were supportive, but there was a lot of opinions out there. Blind person had no business up there.
I was gonna subject everyone to, horrendous rescue. I was gonna have to subject myself to more risk than anyone else. Blah, blah, blah. Uh, so did you, you know, what was the word when you started talking about your plans, your dreams?
ASL Translator: Yeah, I think that the hardest part is, you know, this is Scott here,as deaf people, we don't have all the answers all the time.
Right. So when we were announcing to our community and, to the world that we were doing Everest, you know, we had, questions just like you asked us, how are you going to communicate at 26, 000 feet? How are you going to communicate with an oxygen mask or with your gloves on or with mittens and minus 40 degree temperatures or in the, pitch black darkness?
And at that time, we had no answers because we actually didn't know how. We weren't there yet. So that was the hardest part. was the questions that we got beforehand. But the most important thing for us was just to remember, and, in the history of humanity, people did not have all the answers before they did something.
So did they know what it would be like on the moon before they got there? Like how it would feel to walk on the moon? what, how their body would experience not having gravity? Like those kinds of things, you don't know until you do it. So it's like the power of, of being in action and actually going there.
So when we went to Nepal, that was the first time that we met and created a system with our Sherpas on the spot. So we thought, how are we going to communicate together? And then we figured it out once we got there and along the way. So we didn't always have all the answers in the beginning and we didn't have it all worked out.
But we figured it out once we were there. And then Shayna is adding, And then also I just remember how excited our community was. Honestly, our community was so excited. They were supportive because there's not many deaf people that climb and then also that climb Mount Everest, especially. So we were the first and our community was so just excited and they all came together, which was really cool to see, you're right on the other side.
You have people who doubt and question or maybe don't believe in us or believe that we will actually fly to Nepal and actually climb. They think Oh yeah, that's what they want to do, but are they actually going to do it? There were mixed reactions at times, and it wasn't always an easy journey,but we got there.
Erik Weihenmayer: On my same Nepal trip that I guided those youth, we visited a school for the deaf in the Mustang region, and, and they told us, yeah, it was really cool, and they told us that, it's really hard to be employed when you're deaf in Nepal. Same goes for the blind, by the way, you're lucky you are fortunate. You are rare if you actually have employment as a deaf or blind person. they were saying, if you're deaf or blind, sometimes you wind up on the street, you know, indentured servitude, sex slaves. Uh, it was, it was hard to hear. It was a gut check, And it made me realize, like, how thankful I am, for the opportunities that we're blessed with.
Like we can go and make a dream to climb Mount Everest and actually achieve that while, some of these folks in Nepal are just struggling to survive. We went to a restaurant with, where it was all deaf waiters too. That was really cool.
ASL Translator: Yeah, yeah. no, but you're right about that Shayna saying, 'cause you go out and you see the world. It always makes me realize how important the ADA law is the Americans with Disabilities Act. In the United States we often are able to have opportunities to have access, to have those accommodations that we need because we have that federal law in place.Sometimes we forget how powerful it is until we go to another country that doesn't have the same laws as us, that doesn't have the same resources or access.
And like you said, there's some deaf and blind people in the Nepalese region who are not able to find work and live on the streets. So, you know, the ADA definitely is very powerful here and helps us to navigate life in a way that we can.
Erik Weihenmayer: Well, now that you two have had these amazing success, your, goal is to really, I think, become an advocate, or be an advocate.
And you're doing a lot of speaking, you're visiting a lot of schools, and tell me about that. I bet it's really fulfilling to be surrounded by young people, and they listen to your stories, and it makes them feel like their own dreams are more credible.
ASL Translator: Yeah, Scott here. It definitely started with us, being or working at a deaf school.
I was a math teacher, for middle school, just like you, right? Didn't you teach middle school?
Erik Weihenmayer: I was a middle school math teacher.
ASL Translator: Yeah, yeah, me too. That's so funny. So yeah, so I taught and then Shayna, she was a school counselor. So we both worked at the school for five years and we loved what we did and we loved what we were doing.
And, but we also loved going out and climbing big mountains and going on these big expeditions. And then we reached a point where we felt like our paths were sort of diverting away from what we were doing and we couldn't do both full time. So we had to really make that big decision to create our own path.
And which was a path right in the middle, essentially, from teaching or from climbing. So what that looked like was to leave our teaching job and to do this full time, which is different speaking engagements, as well as climbing mountains. So we always bring some sort of teaching into our speaking engagements.
But at the time, we didn't know what that path really looked like because we were creating a new one. It wasn't something that we'd seen before. So to be honest, it was scary. It was definitely terrifying. It was hard because neither of us could see what the future looked like. We were paving a new way. So we had no idea how it was going to pan out, but we just knew that it was our passion
And we knew it was coming from the heart and it was something that we wanted to do.
And you can't go wrong. When you're really, when you're following your heart and you're following your passion, you let that guide you. So,we made that path right in the middle and we started climbing more mountains. And then we also were going to the deaf and hard of hearing schools. We were giving talks, we were sharing our journeys with them, even taking them out on small hikes or just, talking to them about the importance of pursuing dreams.
and just have to be climbing big mountains. It can be whatever that they want it to be. So the more and more we did that, we just thought, wow, we just love what we do, bringing, both of those communities together as well, the outdoor world, as well as the Deaf community, that we know and cherish.
So it's really fun. It's exciting. And Shayna's saying, and it's also empowering for the children, for the kids to see them see other deaf people in spaces that they don't usually see deaf people. Because in the outdoors, we don't typically see a lot of deaf people in the outdoors or in outdoor sports.
So it's nice for us to go there and share what we've been doing. And the kids are saying, wow, like you're doing that. Like maybe that's something I could do, or maybe I can do something different that I don't usually see deaf people doing. So from us just showing up and sharing our experiences, you can see that light bulb go off in their heads of, coming up with different ideas and, maybe even putting themselves in spaces that they've never seen before and creating their own opportunities that they've, that they can create because they see that representation when we come and give our talks.
Erik Weihenmayer: Wonderful. You guys are definitely door openers for so many people and, uh, the world needs more of you. So, um, I'll. end with the question that you can't do, you can't have any interview without this question of what's next? What do you guys got up your sleeve? What are you able to talk about?
ASL Translator: How many people ask you that question?
Erik Weihenmayer: Oh my god, every interview you have to end on that. But I actually am curious. Because you guys are so young, you got tons of years of climbing ahead of you and adventuring.
ASL Translator: Yeah, no, you're right. Well, it's everyone's favorite question.
Erik Weihenmayer: Yeah.
ASL Translator: So we've done four out of the seven summits. Mm hmm. We have three left to go, and our goal is to do one of the three next year. there's just political things that have
Erik Weihenmayer: Yeah. Elbrus might be a tough one to get to in Russia now.
ASL Translator: Exactly. Exactly. So you're putting up what I'm putting down. So there's, also some climate things going on, but Puncak Jaya was closed for the last five years because of Covid that just opened. Mm-hmm .
Erik Weihenmayer: And that's the tallest peak in what's called Oceania, just for people. Puncak Jaya or uh, or Carstensz Pyramid. Yeah, sweet. Yeah. So that's open again.
ASL Translator: Yes. Yeah. That just reopened. Exactly. and then there's also Antarctica, and that one requires a lot of. Planning and funding, support. So we are, we're working on it, figuring out what we're going to do next for next year, but we're not going to tell you which one yet.
Erik Weihenmayer: All right, you got to keep it a surprise. I'm the, I'm like you, I do the same thing. I'm like, if I talk about it too soon, I jinx myself.
ASL Translator: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly. So we like to make sure everything works out smoothly. If we have the permits booked, we have the flights booked, then we will share.
Yeah. But Scott's adding, I think the funniest thing is one of the most like inspirational points of our project and setting up our project was your journey. You were the first blind person to do the seven summits to Summit Everest. So we've been following your journey really closely and you doing that inspired us to pursue and chase this dream.
So thank you. That's the beauty of it.
Erik Weihenmayer: Well, we inspire each other, right? We lift each other up. And that's part of this no barriers mindset is we're in a community that elevates each other, you know? And we. We push each other and don't allow each other to be left on the sidelines.
ASL Translator: Exactly.
Erik Weihenmayer: Yeah.
ASL Translator: Exactly.
Can I ask you a question, Scott saying?
Erik Weihenmayer: Yeah.
ASL Translator: Okay. So obviously, we've done four summits. We have three left. What is your biggest, advice, based on your experience that you could give us?
Erik Weihenmayer: Oh, Russia is going to be a tricky one. I don't know. Maybe there's a way you could sneak in there and do it safely. Antarctica is great, but it's just cold and expensive to get there. We flew like a big Hercules c 100 over across the Drake Passage and, and, and landed at Patriot Hills. That was, like, ancient history. That was way back in 2000.So as long as you have the right gear and so forth, Mount Vincent is a really wonderful, beautiful peak.
And there's other peaks that you can climb around Mount Vincent as well. I really look forward to hearing your adventure in Antarctica. And West Papua, where you go to climb Karsten's Pyramid. That's another tricky one, because as you alluded to, there's a lot of environmental devastation there.
Man, with all the modernization, it's like changing these people's lives so fast. And because of that, there's a lot of kind of political turmoil, but you can also get in there and get out quickly and safely. And so yeah, it's just, you got to cross your fingers a little bit with some of these adventures, right?
ASL Translator: Yeah, Synane's saying we've been double crossing our fingers.
Erik Weihenmayer: Double crossing.
ASL Translator: On both hands.
Erik Weihenmayer: Yeah, both hands.
ASL Translator: You know, quadruple crossing. But last question Shane is asking is, what's next for you, Erik?
Erik Weihenmayer: Oh, so my left hip's starting to grind at 56 years old. So I have to take care of that, but, but if you're going to lose cartilage in a joint, hips are the thing,once I'm able to take care of that, I'd like to go back to the Himalayas in the fall and climb a peak, a really beautiful, steep peak in the Khumbu region,we'll see, and then, I love rock climbing, so I'd like to do Half Dome this, summer.
ASL Translator: Do you know the name of the one in,
Erik Weihenmayer: I can't tell you, it's a surprise. Somebody will steal my idea. Not you guys, you guys won't steal it, but there's like at least ten people listening that might steal it.
ASL Translator: Okay, fair enough.
Erik Weihenmayer: And then I'm gonna go to Brazil and do some beautiful rock climbing, maybe this summer. yeah, there's more adventures than I have cartilage in my knees and hips, so, I won't be able to get to it all in my lifetime. But there is no lack of adventuring in the world.
ASL Translator: You're right about that. We love it. That's awesome.
Erik Weihenmayer: Thank you, you two, for spending an hour with us. Our community is just going to love this interview. I've learned so much and I hope this leads to a friendship where we can spend some time together, maybe hike together, maybe go climb a mountain together.
ASL Translator: Yes. Yeah, definitely. We would love that, Shayna's saying.
Erik Weihenmayer: Since you two are young and fresh, you can carry my pack.
ASL Translator: They're both laughing. Sure, we'll do.
Erik Weihenmayer: All right. Wonderful.
ASL Translator: That would be a good workout for us, right?
Erik Weihenmayer: Yeah. Cool. Thank you, Shayna. Thank you, Scott. No barriers to everyone. Thanks.
ASL Translator: Thank you so much.
Didrik Johnck: The production team behind this podcast includes producer Didrik Johnck, that's me, and audio engineer Tyler Kottman. Special thanks to the Dan Ryan Band for our intro song, Guidance. And thanks to all of you for listening. If you enjoyed this show, please subscribe, share it, and hey, we'd be thrilled for a review.
Show notes can be found at NoBarriersPodcast. com. There's also a link there to shoot me an email with any suggestions or guest ideas for the show. Thanks so much and have a great day.

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