Podcast Ep202 Tara Dower
Didrik Johnck: Welcome, welcome to the No Barriers Podcast, hosted by Erik Weihenmayer. We'll jump to the studio with Erik in just a minute, but first I wanna take you to the Appalachian Trail, the AT as it's called. Here's some stats. At just under 2200 miles it's the longest hiking only footpath in the world. Each year, roughly 3 million people visit a segment of it. Of that, about 3000 people attempt to hike the whole thing with only a fraction finishing. Last year one of those finishers did it faster than anyone else. Thru-hiking the at typically takes about four to seven months. Tara Dower did it in just 40 days.
Erik's conversation with Tara isn't just about endurance or athletic achievement. It's a candid look at the mental hurdles that come with declaring bold goals, the moments of doubt and fear that arise when the stakes are highest, and the team effort often hidden behind an individual's success. Tara shares the highs and lows of her journey. She opens up about what drives her to keep moving forward, the importance of curiosity and confidence, and the value of learning to suffer with purpose.
Let's join Erik and Tara as they uncover what's possible when you refuse to be defined by the limits. I'm producer, Didrik Johnck, and this is the No Barriers podcast.
Erik Weihenmayer: It's easy to talk about the successes, but what doesn't get talked about enough is the struggle. My name is Erik Weihenmayer. I've gotten the chance to ascend Mount Everest, to climb the tallest mountain in every continent, to kayak the Grand Canyon, and I happen to be blind. It's been a struggle to live what I call a no barriers life.
To define it, to push the parameters of what it means. I. And part of the equation is diving into the learning process and trying to illuminate the universal elements that exist along the way. And that unexplored terrain between those dark places we find ourselves in and the summit exists a map. That map, that way forward is what we call no barriers.
Hey everybody, this is Erik Weihenmayer. Welcome to the No Barriers podcast. Tara, I'm so excited to have you on the podcast this morning. I'm like a super fan boy, and man, you have been like on a whirlwind since you smashed the record on the Appalachian Trail. I know you have a lot of other, fastest known times, but that one really.
Seem to capture everyone's imagination. I mean, my gosh, the podcasts and the interviews. Are you exhausted?
Tara Dower: Yes.
Erik Weihenmayer: Yeah.
Tara Dower: Yeah. Um, you know, they kind of fizzled out about two weeks ago. I did, yeah. I went to Ward Colorado pretty much immediately after I finished the trail. And there I was hoping I could just like, recover in the wilderness.
And I did a podcast, at least one podcast every day for around six weeks, if not more. Like some days I did three. So it was a lot, but they fizzled out recently, which is nice. I'm able to, uh, kind of recover from the media attention a little bit.
Erik Weihenmayer: Yeah, I noticed that a lot of the interviews were really specific about running and, ultra marathoning and, trail running and like the kind of food that you eat and the kind of training.
But, so I thought I'd hit you at a different kind of angle because I kind of want to get inside your mind, and, understand sort of the, the mindset behind all this. And so I saw, a YouTube video of you announcing, your goal to, to run the Appalachian Trail and beat that first fastest known time.
And I thought that's scary. Like, 'cause I've been in that situation where I'm like, I want, I have this big goal, but I'm scared to say it out loud. You know what I mean? Yeah. 'cause then the pressure is on and then you got other people that are like, oh, I'm gonna go do it. at the same time or try to beat you or like, was there a little bit of a wrestling match in terms of like how you announced it and when?
Tara Dower: Um, yeah, Yeah, for sure. I'm trying to think back to like my mindset when I announced it.
Erik Weihenmayer: Yeah. did you announce it proudly or were you like a little bit hesitant or?
Tara Dower: No, I was announcing it proudly. I think, there was some hesitation there for different reasons, but I think it was trumped by like the support I knew I would get from people involved with the thru- hiking community and the ultra running community.
I knew I would have that. That support if I announced it early. And that's what ended up happening. I had a lot of people that came out that watched that video or followed me on Instagram who ended up pacing me for sections or came out and, provided food and just support for the crew. So I am glad that I announced it that early.
You're gonna have to eventually announce it. People are eventually gonna know about it. So I just figured like, why not just, yeah. Do it sooner.
Erik Weihenmayer: So you're not like superstitious or anything like, oh, if I announce it, I'll jinx myself or any, you didn't have any weird mind games apparently, like I might.
Tara Dower: No, no.
Erik Weihenmayer: How'd you get the, uh, the, the name Candy Mama on the trail?
Tara Dower: Yeah. Candy Mama in 2019 when I thru-hiked the trail, it just, yeah, it took five months and 10 days. And I was around a lot of people and we all get separate trail names and mine happened to be Candy Mama, 'cause I eat a lot of candy when I'm on trail and I mom everyone incessantly.
Erik Weihenmayer: What's your go-to candy? Mine's peanut m and ms and goobers. Oh my gosh. Chocolate covered peanuts. I think you're allergic to peanuts, Yeah. How'd you know that? I'm imagining that's, oh, I do my research. Don't worry.
Tara Dower: That's funny. I'm glad you know that. Some people, like some of my good friends, don't like, uh, rascal, who was actually the crew chief, forgot a couple times on trail that I was allergic to nuts. Yeah, my favorite candy would have to be nerds Clusters right now.
Erik Weihenmayer: Oh, wow. Yeah, I can't, wow. That is a sugar high.
Tara Dower: I can't really eat them. Like my dentist tells me I shouldn't eat them because it gets stuck in your teeth, and that's how the cavities start. Right. Like that gummy, gummy stuff. But like she said, chocolate would be probably better than like that gummy candy.
Erik Weihenmayer: It's funny that you mention that is because I did, I had this little flirtation with adventure racing. I did the Primal Quest years and years ago, and I ate so many sweets that, after that trip, I think I hurt the, the enamel on my teeth.
Tara Dower: Oh, yeah.
Erik Weihenmayer: Yeah. Like my teeth were super sensitive for six months.
Tara Dower: Yeah.
Erik Weihenmayer: yeah. No, I think that is credible. You could probably, yeah. all that sweet stuff just burning a hole through your, teeth. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. But anyway, I digress.
Hey everybody, this is Erik and I want to take a little break from our interview to tell you about No Barriers. Obviously, we're interviewing these amazing no barriers pioneers, but behind this podcast is an organization called No Barriers. Predicated on the idea that what's within us is stronger than what's in our way.
Our mission at No Barriers is to help people with disabilities, to break through barriers, to tap into the light of the human spirit, and to reclaim their lives, sometimes to reclaim their potential in the business of shifting mindsets. And it's proud work and I hope you'll get involved. Learn more about us. Check out our newsletter. No Barriers usa.org. No Barriers podcast.com.
So how do you decide it, it's a little bit complicated. There's unsupported, there's semi unsupported, there's supported. How do you decide, like how do you work through all those logistics? I'm just curious.
Tara Dower: Yeah, so the three different categories of fastest known times, FKTs, they are explained on fastestknowntime.com if anyone wants to do any more research.
But, there's three different categories. So it's supported, self-supported and unsupported. And so supported is just You have to be self-propelled. But other than that, you can just like, do, like you can get as much support as you want, right? So that could include people carrying your stuff or, a pacer with you the entire time.
That can also be like your backpacking and then you receive like a minimal amount of support, somebody coming out and giving you food. So that's supported. Self-supported is essentially you are taking care of yourself. You are able to resupply, you're able to buy new shoes, but you cannot like, receive any outside help, right?
Except for any like, random trail magic you might encounter. And then unsupported is you start the trail, you start and end the trail with everything on your back. You can't resupply, you can't get any extra support. so I knew just like from,
Erik Weihenmayer: so at that point, if you're doing that, you got a big pack.
Tara Dower: Oh yeah,
Erik Weihenmayer: you got a big pack. Yeah. that's a totally different animal, isn't it?
Tara Dower: Yeah, there's, usually it's I don't wanna speak for everyone, but people usually limit like unsupported records to about 500 miles. So a lot of people do it on like the Colorado Trail for instance. That's a big pack, but Heather Anish Anderson did do the Arizona Trail unsupported, and you should have seen her pack.
She had a couple bags hanging off of her, I think Arizona trail's around 900 miles. So that's quite stout for an FKT, an unsupported FKT.
Erik Weihenmayer: Cool. And I watch one of your, or listen to one of your, videos and, uh, your, one of your big fears of, when you're running down a trail is, skin walkers.
Tara Dower: Yeah.
Erik Weihenmayer: What is a, what's a skin walker? Is that like a ghost or something?
Tara Dower: Oh, I don't know the exact definition of a skin walker, but I'm pretty sure they're just like these beings that take over the the bodies of
Erik Weihenmayer: Yeah. Things like Stephen King writes about 'em.
Tara Dower: Yeah. like it could take over the body of a deer or a dog or a person, and then they try to find like other people to like
Erik Weihenmayer: Yeah.
Tara Dower: Consume, I guess.
Erik Weihenmayer: Yeah. And the other fear was your UFO, which I know you were, it was a tongue in cheek comment, but I thought it was so funny you said,I wouldn't want to be abducted by a UFO because then they drop me off at a different place and then you'd be disqualified. Yeah. So it was a very practical fear of UFOs.
It wasn't like the torture or anything.
Tara Dower: No. Nope. I wasn't worried about the probing as more, within the rules of an FKT. How will that work?
Erik Weihenmayer: Yeah. But it does. I mean, the serious side of that is that when you are trotting along at nighttime, I bet your mind can go wild.
Like when I was a kid, going down in Connecticut into the basement, oh yeah. At nighttime to go grab something. You're like, ha, you just oh yeah. And you turn around, you get whatever you need to do, and you sprint up the stairs, slam the door, you know,
Tara Dower: I still do that.
Erik Weihenmayer: So yeah. It must be a little scary running at nighttime. Yeah. You have a, you, are you usually accompanied by somebody running with you or are you sometimes alone at nighttime?
Tara Dower: Usually when I'm running at night on the trail, it was mostly the mornings, so I would start my running at 3:30 AM That's right.
So I'd have a couple hours of night tire, like dark. Early morning hours. And usually I was by myself during those hours. Like I generally would start the days by myself and then I'd gain a pacer like, at the first cruise spot for the day. I was with a pacer for about 80% of the trail. But a lot of those miles where I didn't have a pacer were in those early morning hours.
And I like that. Honestly, it felt like a time where I could just be by myself. And it's the start of the day. I'm like finding my motivation within. I find that I'm more self motivated than, motivated by, people. So it was a nice way to start the morning.
Erik Weihenmayer: Yeah. You must be pretty creaky waking up after, so many miles, you kinda have to get the creakiness outta your body probably, right?
Tara Dower: Yeah. The first mile, two miles is pretty slow and difficult. Like the first mile, I'm usually using the bathroom, taking off jackets, retying my shoes if I need to. yeah, so I generally don't try to pay attention to my pace for that first like mile because I am stopping so often. And I am in a little bit of pain.
At least a little bit of pain.
Erik Weihenmayer: Yeah. And I hate to bring up scary stuff, but man, I got pretty intrigued. It was compelling. The story of did, wasn't there like a murderer out on the trail? Did you actually meet this person or did you just hear about him?
Tara Dower: Yeah, I, it was in 2019 during the through hike instead of like FKT.
But yeah, I met him before he murdered anyone. Yikes. But at that point, he had been,assaulting people and, harassing, hike hikers out on the trail. So we knew who he was and knew to be like
Erik Weihenmayer: the guy with schizophrenia apparently.
Tara Dower: yeah. He was, he has schizophrenia. He is currently,in, I, I know he's not in jail. He's actually receiving help at a, I don't know what they call these days. Yeah, a psych ward,
Erik Weihenmayer: some kind of treatment facility, Yeah. Psych ward. Yeah. Yeah. And he's
Tara Dower: very apologetic for that. that was definitely it. It wasn't a good situation. He wasn't getting the help that he needed.
Erik Weihenmayer: So skin walkers in UFO pale in comparison to humans, I think,
Tara Dower: Oh my gosh, yes. Like it would be really cool to see a UFO out there, but like people, I watch a lot of true crime, which I probably shouldn't, but
Erik Weihenmayer: Yeah, you should stop that.
Tara Dower: People, people, animals are predictable. UFOs are cool. That'd be cool if I saw one, but people, that's where the concern comes in.
Erik Weihenmayer: So when I did the Primal Quest, years and years ago, one, we had a support vehicle and, but they just kept feeding us at these stopping points. Pizza and hot dogs. And so I made the mistake, halfway through the race, nine days, eating a hot dog with mustard on it, and then I threw up.
Because I was so tired and hot. Dog chunks and mustard.
Tara Dower: Ew.
Erik Weihenmayer: Shot out my nose. Ew. Yeah. Just thought you'd might wanna know that detail.
Tara Dower: I love that. That's,
Erik Weihenmayer: But you must have had some stories like that. What were the low points, not just with the Appalachian, but on any of your trips, like I heard you one time talking about thunderstorms and terrifying thunderstorms. Soaking wet hypothermic. Yeah. Hungry, tired, you know.
Tara Dower: Yeah. That was on the Benton MacKaye Trail, which follows. Yeah. It's the original proposed route for the southern part of the Appalachia Trail. It goes from Davenport Gap to Springer Mountain Uhhuh, and Benton MacKaye is actually like the father of the, AT, he, helped bring the at to life, in those early days.
Yeah, Benton MacKaye Trail, it's 280 miles, somewhere in there. 289 I believe. Yeah. And I was, it was like getting pretty late one night and I was in the 60 mile section without any crew access. And this is an FKT, by the way, for those that don't know. And it was like the, I think it was the second day and I was going over this mountain and there was a storm about to hit the mountain and I just, I knew it was looming, so I started calling my friends and I was asking 'em what I should do. They said, you just have to keep going. there's nothing else you can do. You have to keep going. So I just had to like, hike through this like insane rain, thunder, lightning storm. And it just so happened this part of the trail was where the only balds, were on the entire like trail.
So balds are just like the exposed sections, yeah. On a mountain. And it just happened. Yeah.
Erik Weihenmayer: You got nothing to protect you.
Tara Dower: Yeah. I was just walking over those during this thunderstorm.
Erik Weihenmayer: Were, was that, were you scared? what does your mind do in that situation? you've probably been out there so much, maybe you're just like, Hey man, nothing to do, but just keep powering.
Right? Or, or
Tara Dower: Yeah. I was freaking out, but I was like, there's really nothing. Excuse me for those that don't know, I'm a little sick at the moment.
Erik Weihenmayer: Yeah. Thanks for powering through this interview. With a cold too, by the way. Yeah.
Tara Dower: People could probably tell by my voice, but anyways, yeah, there's nothing you could really do but just keep moving.
Like I knew that the route I was going, I knew the route and if you stop, that's when you can get cold and start to get hypothermic, 'cause it was getting to that point where it was getting pretty chilly with the rain especially. So you just have to keep walking as fast as you can.
Erik Weihenmayer: Yeah. There's no reason to panic. 'cause what's that gonna do for you? It just expend more energy. And calories.
Tara Dower: Exactly.
Erik Weihenmayer: Yeah. Yeah. So you went pro, how long ago did you go pro? Am I saying it right?
Tara Dower: Yeah,
Erik Weihenmayer: A pro runner. Yeah. So so yeah, like you were an amateur and then you're, now you make a living as a runner and an adventurer, right?
Tell me about that transition and that decision.
Tara Dower: Yeah, this is my 2024 is actually the first year where I'm getting paid to run, with Ultra. And I'm very thankful for that partnership and they support all my adventures really well, and I was
Erik Weihenmayer: And Ultra is your sponsor?
Tara Dower: Yep. Ultra running.
Erik Weihenmayer: Yep. Yeah. Sweet.
Tara Dower: I was pretty intentional from the beginning about wanting to partner with them as an elite runner. I remember seeing their website and it had like their elite athlete page and I remember looking at it and thinking I wanna be on that page one day, and here I am on that page. That's awesome.
Yeah. I, congratulations. Thank you. Yeah, I love their shoes. I've always been a fan of their shoes, so it's just, it's so cool that I could also be an athlete for them and represent them.
Erik Weihenmayer: Yeah. I use those shoes too as well. They're super amazing. So
Tara Dower: what's your favorite one by them?
Erik Weihenmayer: I can't even remember 'cause being blind, you forget what the label says immediately and then you're like, I can't remember all those names.
I used to be sponsored by Mountain Hardware. I could barely remember 'cause they changed the names like every year, you know?
Tara Dower: Oh yeah.
Erik Weihenmayer: Like I don't know what I'm wearing. So Blue Fleece from what I was told,
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Erik Weihenmayer: How did you get into running? Tell me about your origin story. When did you know you loved it, you know, or, or maybe love hated it.
Tara Dower: I think I've always just had a love for running. Definitely during races, there's like that hate relationship when you're like going through like really tough parts, but you are like, why do I do this to myself? But then you finish, you're like, oh, I'll do it again. Yeah. But I've always been like a fan of running.
I've always loved it. But it started when, I mean I played soccer growing up. I played midfield, so I was going back from defense to forward a lot. As a midfielder, you're running a lot all over the field. Constantly. Yeah, constantly. So I just developed that endurance naturally. And once I got into track in middle school, I already had this endurance built up.
So I was able to do really well in the mile and went on to cross country in high school and did pretty well there and just fell in love with running in the outdoors and nature, especially with cross country being You're running all over nature. Where we were running in Raleigh. Yeah.
And then I took a break from running in college and played rugby, but I always had that love for endurance sport and knew that like I eventually wanted to do like longer races being like marathons and right. half marathons. But I never thought I would get into like ultra marathons, which is where I'm in that space right now
Erik Weihenmayer: Because there's a huge leap between a cross country runner in high school and what you're doing now.
Did you have indications that you would be good at these ultra distance marathons?
Tara Dower: Yeah. I, I, I guess I didn't really know that they existed in high school. Right. Um, but I knew that, I just it's always comes back to that curiosity and like Right. That chi challenge mindset. So I didn't know if I would be good at it, but I knew that I like wanted to like discover if I was like, even capable of doing it.
Erik Weihenmayer: What was your first foray into this?
Tara Dower: Oh, yeah. I thru-hiked in 2019. and after that I wanted to get into more trail adventures. I knew that I wanted to like
Erik Weihenmayer: You thru-hiked the Appalachian.
Tara Dower: Yep. Yeah. And so I did an FKT on the Mountains of Sea Trail, which goes across the state of North Carolina. It's 1,175 miles. Wow. And yeah, that was my first introduction into like endurance running, It's a big
Erik Weihenmayer: introduction.
Tara Dower: Oh yeah. I, it is. It's, I think back to, I'm like, that was a lot of, that was a lot of, gaw to just go out there and do this huge thing. to just be like, yeah, 1,175 miles is gonna be my first like introduction to Endurance Sport. Sure. Why not? So it's a lot of a, what's the word I'm looking for? Gaw. That's a good word. Yeah, for sure.
Erik Weihenmayer: And confidence. Oh my gosh.
Tara Dower: Yeah. I don't know if I was confident and if I could do it, I just was like, let's see how it goes. And I think back to a time my mindset like, what was I thinking?
Why did I think that was a good idea?
Erik Weihenmayer: Yeah. And was there a moment that solidified in your mind, I love this, I want to do this as long as I can?
Tara Dower: Oh, I suffered a lot on the Mountain of sea Trail with it being my first, I didn't really know what I was doing with nutrition. I didn't really know what I was doing with like, how to structure a support crew. So I struggled a lot on that trail, like mentally and physically.
Erik Weihenmayer: So at the time, maybe you're thinking, I don't know if I'm meant for this. And then as you said, you finish and you're like, I could do this a lot better.
Tara Dower: Yeah. Yeah. That's pretty much how it went,
Erik Weihenmayer: right? Yeah. I'm seeing a lot of parallels in the mountain climbing I've done. You just suffer so much, and at the time you're just, it's like in the first mountain I climbed was Denali, and it was like, I didn't know how to suffer, like in that way. I had wrestled in high school, so I had some fitness, but learning how to suffer and know the difference between like when I should turn back and when I should keep powering forward is like this tricky, tricky art form.
Tara Dower: Yeah. I love that. Yeah, for sure. That was definitely my experience on the Mountains of Sea Trail, like not knowing how far I can push myself and if it was like unsustainable,
Erik Weihenmayer: How do you know, like what are your, now that you're more experienced, what, how do you know the difference between power through and I am injured and I need to stop or I need to rest?
Tara Dower: That's a great question. I usually leave that up to my crew to decide because in those moments where I do feel injured, I also have a very weak mind and I can be convinced of a lot of stuff. So I tend to leave up those big decisions to my crew who have less sleep deprived, more active minds, Yeah, than I do. because as
Erik Weihenmayer: you said, you're the race car, you're probably just slugging along, trying to keep your mind quiet and so forth. Exactly. And your team is there looking out for you.
Tara Dower: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.
Erik Weihenmayer: And they're more aware, they're not sleep deprived. They're not starving.
Tara Dower: Yeah. They're a little sleep deprived, but a little less than I am.
Erik Weihenmayer: Yeah. and I've, you've mentioned that it's a, it is a team effort, even though the image of you just solo running and then laying by the way, laying on the trail and taking dirt naps. That's hilarious. I, a lot of people have told me, not a lot, somebody told me maybe they were hiking while you were doing your race and they were like, just walked by this girl, and she was just like lying in the dirt sleeping.
Tara Dower: Yeah, there was a bunch of people that walked by me. I have, I always had a crew member with me timing my naps, but, yeah, they would walk by and they'd be like, is she okay? They're like, yeah, she's just taking a quick one minute nap.
Erik Weihenmayer: Did you hallucinate?
Tara Dower: Yeah, I did. I had a lot of like mini hallucinations.
So yeah, I would see, like for a split second, I would see like a person hanging from a tree or like a little devil sitting on a trail, sitting on a tree. Scary. yeah, it was scary. Like a white cat and a dog. I saw a lion very split second though, very fast.
Erik Weihenmayer: Yeah. Did you ever have conversations with people that weren't there?
Tara Dower: No, I never had any of those conversations.
Erik Weihenmayer: Yeah. I did. I, when I was on that, those adventure racing days, I would be talking to people and my friend was like, who are you talking to? Oh, no way. I thought. I thought there was someone there.
Tara Dower: Oh. And then I would, what were you guys talking about?
Erik Weihenmayer: I don't know.
There's, they didn't exist, but they were in my mind. And I would, I was a fifth grade English and math teacher. And so one time, one time I was hallucinating, I was seeing my fifth graders and they were all on a playground behind a chain link fence. And they're playing and doing the merry-go-round and swinging.
And they all ran to the fence and they're like, Mr. Weihenmayer, you can do it. You can do it. Wow. And I'm like, thanks kids. And my friend Jeff went, who are you talking to? And I'm like, talking to my fifth graders man. so the images of you just running and just this cool image of you, but as you've said in the past, I mean, there is a masterful team effort here.
So tell me about, a bit about your crew or about the support that you have that's super critical.
Tara Dower: You know, it's, yeah, you're right. It's super critical. So the crew compiled, so it was me. Rascal and my mom. Those were, we were the ones that were there the entire time. yeah, so I was a runner. I have a job on this crew, which is just running, rascal was the crew chief, so she made final decisions.
She did trail math. She would make the schedule for the day. My mom was a crew mom, so she organized Pacers and communicated with people who are coming in. She did a lot of those extra chores, so like laundry and cooking. We had a lot of people come in and out. So we had a lot of Pacers, so some people would come in for a day in pace and others would come in for five miles.
We had people like Grace and jp, JP came out for a month. Grace came out for like two weeks and they just paced all their job was just a pace. Amy and Steve came out and they had a van that they could cook, bake anything in their van.
Erik Weihenmayer: Nice.
Tara Dower: Also, they had a shower and two outta, the three showers they took on the trail were in their van.
So I was nice. I took showers like 10 feet from the trail. And then, yeah, so she was the cook and she made sure I was eating, appropriate amount of macros, so like protein and carbs and fats. Right. Um, she keeping track of that.
Erik Weihenmayer: It's a really beautiful idea, Yeah. 'cause of course, I mean it's a team sport, right?
It's not thought of maybe as a team sport, but it is truly a team sport so that you can just focus on the run. Like you can just keep it simple because if you're worrying about all those logistics, I bet that would just like collapse on top of you, right?
Tara Dower: Yeah. I was able to like fully engage into just running.
All I was worried about was going forward, so I didn't have to worry about like, if I was eating enough food, I didn't have to worry about like, when I was eating. So I didn't have to keep track of time. My pacers who were with me, they were able to say, okay, it's been 20 minutes. Here's a snack, what do you want?
Erik Weihenmayer: Yeah. There's a lot of trust there.
Tara Dower: Yeah. Yeah. It was, and I think,it's important to like, give a lot of credit to my mom and Rascal because I don't think I trusted everyone who came out, but I definitely trusted them to like, like screen these people and see who is coming out in these pacing sections.
'cause oftentimes they're just random people. So when they said, Hey, this is blah, blah, blah, Fred or whatever, he's gonna pace you for however many miles. I knew I was safe because Rascal, my mom had already screened them.
Erik Weihenmayer: In terms of that team, have you had some role models from the beginning?
Like people you looked up to? Yeah, maybe in the world of running or the world of adventure.
Tara Dower: Yeah, absolutely. I wanted to partner with Girls on the Run because I wanted to inspire and encourage women and girls to go for that tough goal, no matter what it was. And, that came from a place of I have received so much inspiration from my women role models, in my life.
And I would say like those women were Jennifer Pharr Davis, who held the women's record before I beat it, Heather Anish Anderson, who holds the self-supported women's record back in the day. It was the overall, FKT for self-supported. Same with Jen. She held the overall record as well. Courtney Dauwalter, who's an exceptional ultra runner for those that don't know.
Erik Weihenmayer: Did you get to meet all these people?
You're probably friendly with all these people now, huh?
Tara Dower: Oh yeah. Yeah. I'm very honored to, be associated with them.
Erik Weihenmayer: That's pretty cool to meet your role models and then be a role model for others.
Tara Dower: Yeah. Yeah, it's very humbling.
Erik Weihenmayer: And Girls On the Run, since you mentioned it, tell me more about Girls On the Run and why it's so important to you and how you support them.
Tara Dower: Yeah. Girls on the Run is, it's a pretty cool organization. They are in these communities. Around age eight, there's like this steady incline for young girls, of confidence. And then as soon as they hit age eight, it decreases, it falls off. And so what Girls On the Run is trying to do, they're trying to, not only teach this running curriculum, but they're also trying to build young girls' confidence up.
They're trying to teach 'em life skills, social emotional life skills as well, and running's on the side. So they're doing this running program, and by the end of this program they run a 5K. They're able to run this 5K because in the beginning, I know as a young girl, I didn't think it was possible to run 3.1 miles.
That's so many miles. Yeah. So by the end of it, these girls run this 5K, they gain that confidence and just have this toolbox of life skills.
Erik Weihenmayer: What ages does it impact?
Tara Dower: Yeah, I know it starts at age eight. I think they have a bunch of different, classes.
Erik Weihenmayer: And so it's just inspiring girls, right, to to not kind of let their dreams go by the wayside, right? I mean, yes.
Tara Dower: yeah.
Erik Weihenmayer: And why do you think that happens to girls? Like they're on this ascent of confidence and dreams and then something gets in the way. What is that?
Tara Dower: I'm not sure. I think it might just be maybe due to puberty, but also like societal pressures start Coming down on them and social media accelerates a lot of that as well. Young people are getting on social media at younger ages. And a lot of life has happened on social media these days, so I think that only accelerates it.
Erik Weihenmayer: Like I knew a friend of mine I climbed with and his daughter became this insanely good rock climber.
And in high school she just quit. And he asked her why and she said, well, because the girls and other kids in my school, I'm kind of skinny, you know what I mean? And they were like making fun of me, like what I'm a weirdo because I'm, I'm different than the norm, than, what you're supposed to do in high school.
And she literally quit for like six years. She didn't take it up again until she was in her, mid to late twenties. Yeah. Which is tragic, you know?
Tara Dower: Yeah. Yeah. It's, I think back, I think back to school and I just, I don't know if there was that, like for kids or teens, there's not that social awareness a lot of the time too.
And so comments fly a little more easily.
Erik Weihenmayer: Right. Right.
Tara Dower: Which gets you, for young girls especially hearing a comment about your body is, it means a lot. It's detrimental sometimes.
Erik Weihenmayer: So how do you think you were able to power through? Like you seem to be maybe be a bit immune to all that pressure and so forth?
Tara Dower: Well, I wasn't quite immune when I was a kid, but I think just getting older, not really, I think it comes with getting older, but you don't really care as much what people say. But running was something I enjoyed, so it only seemed natural to keep doing something that I enjoyed.
Erik Weihenmayer: Yeah, so the joy of it just powered you through.
Tara Dower: Yeah. The joy, and I keep saying this, but the curiosity too. Yeah
Didrik Johnck: No Barriers would like to thank Maison Hennessy, a partner since 2023, for supporting our projects and closely collaborating with us to promote diversity and inclusion amongst their employees. Fueled by team spirit and collaboration Hennessy believes that its rope team is its greatest strength and its greatest responsibility. This year, the world's leading cognac will celebrate 260 years of successes and challenges overcome through the strength of its employees, partners, and consumers across more than 160 countries. To mark this milestone, Hennessy has commissioned an art piece from John Bramblett, A longtime Friend of No Barriers. Thank you Maison Hennessy, for leaning into this No Barriers life.
Erik Weihenmayer: Tara. So, you know, like when you announce a big challenge like your Appalachian Trail challenge... Sometimes I worry when I announce a big project, like I might jinx it or something, or how are people gonna react? Are they gonna think I'm crazy?
Are they gonna, are they gonna steal my idea? You're, you announcing this incredible challenge. Did you have any of those fears or qualms or were you just completely excited and wanted people to know?
Tara Dower: Yeah, there's always like that concern. especially because, oh, it's so funny.
My, my coach just called me. That's so funny. When I'm about to answer a question, she calls me. Oh, nice. yeah, sorry. yeah, there's always like that concern. I remember with, fastest known times like in the past I was like always worried if I announced it, then somebody would be like, oh, I'm gonna do that and I'm gonna, I'm gonna beat it before her or whatever, but,
that's, it's, if that does happen, I guess like I, I trust myself more these days. I trust my body. It's just like another record that you have to go out and try to, establish another FKT. It's just another challenge. So there wasn't a lot of concern with that? No, it wasn't a huge amount of concern.
Maybe like some public reception, but even then, it's not that big of a deal.
Erik Weihenmayer: And when you did announce it, it sounds like you got tons of support from your community too. Yeah. So it actually had a really positive effect.
Tara Dower: Yeah. No, it did. so there wasn't like any concerns, and like you just mentioned, I did get a lot of people who were on social media who did reach out and they wanted to come out and help.
And we gained so many people on the crew just from, me announcing it and making it public and, the community was really part of this FKT. People saw the announcement happen and then wanted to join the crew.
Erik Weihenmayer: Great. So Tara, you remember this, book, a short story, Walter Mitty and, there was a movie, Ben Stiller was in it.
And,he's like dreaming of this incredible life, but really he's just like waiting for his wife to get groceries in the grocery store, so it's this. conflict between, am I a person who sits around dreaming or can I actually achieve this?
Have you ever struggled with that or have you ever, felt maybe like a Walter Middy or like, how do you reconcile that?
'cause you have done really big things. You're clearly not a Walter Mitty, but I imagine that creeps into all our minds from time to time.
Tara Dower: Yeah. I love that movie, by the way, with Ben Stiller. That was, I think they came out when I was in high school and yeah, it was a good one, with Ben Stiller and he eventually, in that movie, he did go on all of his adventures and I was inspired.
I'm always inspired by like those types of stories, like adventurous stories. Even if it's just a movie. I'm like, and it's Hollywood. I'm like, oh, that's so cool. I would love that kind of life. I, I, I don't remember the question, the original question. I was thinking about the movie so much.
Erik Weihenmayer: Well, Walter, in the short story, not the Ben Stiller version, he's dreaming about this life that he wants. And it's like you're at the end of the story. You're left with this fundamental question, is he ever gonna achieve this? Or is this just an absolute dream? And so maybe in the beginning of your career, when you're dreaming big, I guess maybe I'll phrase it this way, did you ever see yourself kicking ass in the way that you are doing now?
Tara Dower: No, I never imagined myself to be like setting records, like overall records, but records in general, I'd never expected that to be my story. But I think it's just constantly trying to like, push the envelope, see what's possible, see what's next. Like it's, I view it as like this ladder, like I knew I wasn't, in the beginning when I started this, I didn't think I was gonna be here, but through like this, essentially like this ladder, I've been like just making my way, to the top and to where I am now, where I set this incredibly stout record on the Appalachian Trail.
I never really saw myself there. I always saw myself having some sort of adventure in life and having a life that I was happy about. I think everyone feels this way. They don't wanna be bogged down by like a career, not a career. some people are really into careers, but maybe a job that isn't super fulfilling.
I didn't want to get into a job where I was not being fulfilled. and I was just working for money. I wanted to do a job that was really engaging and I'm lucky. Yeah. I love that, that I'm doing that now.
Erik Weihenmayer: Yeah, that's for sure. And it sounds like you're the kind of person, this is the kind of teammates I look for when I'm climbing.
somebody who's not like scared or they shrink when they think about a big challenge, it actually makes them bigger. It actually motivates them. So it sounds like you're that kind of person where you think about this challenge and you're not absolutely intimidated or crushed by it. You are motivated by what you're about to go through to, see if you can achieve it or not, right?
Tara Dower: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Erik Weihenmayer: Yeah. I think it's a great mindset.
Tara Dower: Yeah. Yeah.
Erik Weihenmayer: Tara, you're an amazing athlete, but, and these adventures, say the Appalachian Trail 40 days or any of the other number of ultra marathon adventures that you've done. There must have been absolute low points, right?
Tara Dower: Yeah. Low points on this specific adventure. On the Appalachian trail during this FKT, I would say most of 'em were had during the, New Hampshire and Southern Maine sections.
I hadn't seen the sun for like. Several days, and I was cold and wet, just constantly, and it was just like, I was pretty bogged down at this point. But one of these specific low points was, one of the last ranges, called the Kinsmans in New Hampshire.
It was before, I'm about to, get out of the Whites, which are just it's just so difficult. I'm about to yeah.
Erik Weihenmayer: Super rocky and ups and downs.
Tara Dower: Yeah. And I'm about to like, finally, I'm almost done with it. I have one more, Mount Moosilauke, but I still have the Kinsman. I'm in the middle of the Kinsman.
It's like getting late and I'm, Looking at my phone, I'm wet, I'm drenched. I've gone 40, I don't even know, 40 some miles. And I'm just cold and wet and tired and I'm so ready to be done. And I was with my Pacer Maya and it's getting dark and I'm looking at my phone to see how far we have left.
And as I'm looking at my phone in this plastic bag, 'cause it's raining, I trip and fall into this mud pit. And if you've been to the northeast, there's a bunch of these deep mud pits and I just fall, like hands and knees into this mud pit. Mud splashes up on my face and it's just like, at that point I just was like, disassociating.
I was like, I just wanna get this done. Like I was, I was completely done. There was not even anger to be had. It was, I was past that.
Erik Weihenmayer: So tired you couldn't even be angry.
Tara Dower: Yeah. so that was definitely one of my low points for sure. One of the bigger low points. and then the next day we finally exited the Whites. And I was able to have that pass me, but definitely a low point in New Hampshire.
Erik Weihenmayer: Hmm. That does sound low. Yeah. Do you at least, did you get a photo of you, as a mud baby?
Tara Dower: Oh, no. No. that would've been great if Maya took a picture. Oh my gosh. She need to, I was sitting there, we need to
Erik Weihenmayer: res, simulate it again, Go roll around in the mud and get a good photo.
Tara Dower: Yeah. I was sitting there in the mud and Maya was like, Hey Tara, I think you should get out of like the mud in the water. 'cause she's like, you don't wanna get hypothermic. I was just sitting there. I was like so numb. I was just like, Ugh, no. And so I just crawled my way out of this mud pit.
It was probably, that's just, for sure the lowest point. There's not much lower you can get than mud pit.
Erik Weihenmayer: Well, unless it was quicksand.
Tara Dower: Yeah, true.
Erik Weihenmayer: So I also heard that you. The first like couple weeks maybe you were behind schedule.
Tara Dower: Mm-hmm.
Erik Weihenmayer: And so you are what I would call a rallyier yeah. So did that make you nervous? You had said that people are there taking care of you, like pacing you, people making sure you get the right number of miles. Mm-hmm. How did you get behind and then therefore you were like, oh God, I better step it up and can I even do this?
Tara Dower: Yeah. For the first 11 days, I did set a schedule. so that was through Maine and New Hampshire. I did give us a schedule because it was important for us to nail those miles. Uh, the very technical, and it's also very remote, so these road crossings are very far and few between. So you do have to plan it with The later miles, past New Hampshire, you can kind of like be like, oh, we can get five more here. 'cause there's another road crossing, but you can't really do that with Maine and New Hampshire. So I did plan it out and I wanted to nail these sections. I must've dub my, did my math wrong because I thought we were gonna be like 35 miles behind.
But we ended up being like, I think it was by like Connecticut we found that we were like a hundred plus miles behind and it was just a lot more than what I was predicting. And I asked Rascal, like, where are we on the record? And she's like, I'll check. And she checked and she told me how far we were behind.
I don't actually, I don't remember if she told me, but she did say we need to catch up. And she started like pushing me pretty hard to catch up. And that was a fight between us. Not like an actual fight, but it was just like, I. I didn't know if it was possible to do that amount of miles. And Rascal there's this very pivotal moment where she was like, I know you can do it. I just need you to believe that you can do it. And once I gave up control completely, like I, I talk about how I didn't have any control, but, I still was holding onto like my little bits of control. so once I finally gave out control and let rascal judge how many miles I was doing that day and tell me, you're gonna do this no matter what, and I'm following orders, we were, a smooth running machine, all of us as a crew. and it took a lot, it took a lot of trust in myself and a lot of trust in the crew to just give up control in that way.
Erik Weihenmayer: Yeah. That's such a rally. Wow.
Tara Dower: Yeah.
Erik Weihenmayer: So this is probably an impossible question for you to answer because you have never been an unknown in your own mind, of course.
But all these like. People that have been around forever, Scott Jurich and all these people, right? And you come, it's from the world's perspective, it feels like you came out of nowhere. You're like the silent crusher who came outta nowhere and just beat all these incredible legends. Do you ever like just go, what the hell?
Tara Dower: It's pretty cool. Cool. How do I do that? Pretty cool. It's pretty cool to think about, Carl Melter, he was my coach for a while, and, he helped the crew a lot with doing these miles. In FKT's, I think there's that like comradery where we're all just trying to beat the record.
We're trying to, lower that record. I think people are really excited and, I'm really pumped. I'm excited that I, am the one to have set that record with the help of my crew.
Erik Weihenmayer: Yeah. And you know, it's funny, records will always be beaten, right? So probably, yep,
Tara Dower: they're made to be broken.
Erik Weihenmayer: Do you wanna beat, do you wanna beat your own record or are you done with that particular Appalachian?
Tara Dower: Maybe. Maybe. Yeah. I think I'm looking at other trails right now, but you know, I could see in the future going back.
Erik Weihenmayer: Yeah. That'd be pretty cool.
Tara Dower: Yeah.
Erik Weihenmayer: At the end of the trail of the Appalachian, there's this plaque that says, pathway for those seeking fellowship with the wilderness.
even though you were hammering the whole 40 days, did you feel some moments of fellowship where you, you know, maybe you were able to let go of the anxiety or the, the ambition of what you were trying to do and just connect with pretty beautiful place?
Tara Dower: Yeah, absolutely. I think, a lot of people think that this was a suffer fest for me that I did not enjoy.
And I had a lot of hard days. I had more hard days than good days, but honestly, like I was out there from the start just to enjoy myself, to travel a trail in a different distance. So going, southbound, going at the trail in a different way and just experiencing the trail in the community again, I wanted to, listen to birds in the morning.
I, that was my favorite part of the thru-hike. I wanted to listen to those birds early in the morning and, travel at night during the trail and see the trail at different times of the day and spend time with the community. And I got to do that. I got to spend a lot of precious moments. Saw a lot of sunsets, a lot of sunrises.
And so I'm really grateful for those times on the trails. I traveled it in a very condensed amount of time, and I'm thankful for the journey. I think it's, I think it's pretty neat. I enjoyed myself a lot and like you said, fellowship, I was able to spend a lot of time with people like the Pacers.
People think I was sprinting the entire time, not sprinting, but running quickly. I wasn't able to experience it, but I was able to talk with these people. A lot of the times I would be quiet, but I would just be listening to these pacers just tell me stories. And I had several pacers out there with me, so it was a special journey.
Erik Weihenmayer: Isn't that true? Some of our best conversations are sometimes out there when you're tired on the trail.
Tara Dower: Oh, absolutely.
Erik Weihenmayer: Yeah. So here's a, a, a, a whammy for you to finish here. When I'm climbing a mountain, you're thinking about like a summit or for you a finish line, It's a great challenge, but in a way, like sometimes I've started thinking like maybe that's simpler than life.
How do you feel about like, the differences between challenges on the trail versus challenges in life? What's harder? How are they different?
Tara Dower: I think challenges in life are more abstract than challenges on the trail. Oftentimes with challenges on trail that it can be maneuvered and, you know, I've prepared myself to, take on these challenges on the trail.
If it's like a distance, amount of time that I need to travel a section of trail or a mountain that I need to traverse. it's very straightforward. This is how you do it. There's a plan. Or if there's like a actual challenge, like there's a bear in the way, what do you do if there's a bear in the way, right?
There's a thunderstorm. There's procedures in place to help remedy that. And I think that's very concrete and easy to maneuver. But when it comes to like challenges in life, um, I mean that's just, very broad. But most of the times those are very abstract to maneuver around and, after the trail.
I'm dealing with some of those at the moment and just some personal family issues and, it just, it makes you think back to the trail and, miss how simple, days were on the trail. And not that it was like easy, but it wasn't, it was pretty straightforward. All you need to do is keep going forward and things will kind of line up.
Erik Weihenmayer: Do you think some of those things that you experienced on the trail, some of the things you've learned, some of the values that you have on the trail, do you think they fortify you for these life challenges. Do you think they are able, are you able to integrate them into your life to make you, a better human being?
Tara Dower: Yeah, I think so. a lot of lessons I've learned to help,being on trails has helped a lot with my anxiety. And so like I've brought those lessons that I've learned from trail, how to help my anxiety. I've brought that into my life and, life lessons that I've learned out there.
For instance,this is very cliche, but like, you know, how do you, how do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time? And I think of that with life, but I also think about that in like Ultras or FKT's. Like you can only complete a 2000, 200 mile trail by completing the mile that you're in.
Erik Weihenmayer: That's so true. And not be overwhelmed by looking at the whole thing at once.
Tara Dower: Exactly.
Erik Weihenmayer: Tell us about Girls On the Run. Finish up with the plug with this amazing organization that you support.
Tara Dower: It's a nonprofit that teaches, young girls life skills, confidence building programs, and, teaches them it's, it's surrounded around this running curriculum. And so teaches them, how to navigate life in this pivotal age. Age eight is I think, where they start. That's where there's a drastic decline in confidence, for young girls. So it's this really pivotal point in their lives in order to keep them,on the straight and narrow and to build their confidence up for the future. So I partnered with them and I started a fundraiser. And my original goal was $20,000 and we ended up raising a hundred thousand dollars. So pretty thankful.
My goal for this attempt for the FKT was to encourage and to inspire, young girls, women to go for that tough goal no matter what it was, if it was in running or life.
So it just seemed natural to partner with an organization that was, feeding life into young girls.
Erik Weihenmayer: Cool. Well just, that's not only the young girls, but it's the old crusty blind dudes with gray beards. You've inspired me too. So Tara, thank you so much for being on the No Barriers podcast.
Congratulations again for all your accomplishments and all the cool things you're yet to do. Yeah. In your young life.
Tara Dower: Yeah. Thank you so much for having me.
Erik Weihenmayer: Cool. No barriers to everyone.
Didrik Johnck: The production team behind this podcast includes Producer Didrik Johnck. That's me, an audio engineer, Tyler Kottman. Special thanks to the Dan Ryan Band for our intro song guidance. And thanks to all of you for listening. If you enjoyed this show, please subscribe, share it, and hey, we'd be thrilled for a review.
Show notes can be found at nobarrierspodcast.com. There's also a link there to shoot me an email with any suggestions or guest ideas for the show. Thanks so much and have a great day.
