Podcast Ep212 John O'Leary
Didrik Johnck: Ever wondered how someone survives against all odds when given only a 1% chance to live? What does intentional living really look like when life has dealt you scars both seen and unseen. How do you break out a victimhood and truly embrace self-actualization? And what happens when you show the worst parts of yourself to the people you love the most?
Can that transform your relationships? Today Erik Weihenmayer sits down with John O'Leary. Tune in for answers, gritty stories and raw reflections. I'm Producer Didrik Johnck, and this is The No Barriers Podcast.
Erik Weihenmayer: It is easy to talk about the successes, but what doesn't get talked about enough is the struggle. My name is Erik Weihenmayer. I've gotten the chance to ascend Mount Everest, to climb the tallest mountain in every continent to kayak the Grand Canyon, and I happen to be blind. It's been a struggle to live what I call a no barriers life, to define it, to push the parameters of what it means.
And part of the equation is diving into the learning process and trying to illuminate the universal elements that exist along the way. And that unexplored terrain between those dark places we find ourselves in and the summit exists a map. That map that way forward is what we call No Barriers.
Hey everyone. Welcome to the No Barriers Podcast. This is Erik Weihenmayer and man, this little amateur podcast just keeps getting better and better. Because I'm speaking to my friend John O'Leary today, who we've been getting to know each other because, uh, we did a little podcast trade. I, you interviewed me on your podcast, uh, just last week.
And so now I get to interview you. I get to turn the tides, John.
John O'Leary: Uh, well, if people want to hear a great interview, they should listen to the one where I did of you, because I did almost none of the talking. I let Erik carry the heavy load. And, and Erik, your story's amazing. So when I, uh, was invited by my friend to share a little bit of the story, man, it's, it's an honor to say yes.
Erik Weihenmayer: Well, we're in the mutual love camp here, so it's, and, and I'll just start out by saying you've had an amazing year, uh, highs and lows, you know. highs in terms of your incredible movie that my partner and I watched, or I should say, listened to, uh, with audio description. And, um, and the lows, obviously. you and I talked about this last week, but your, your dad, uh, passed away.
Mine did as well, three years ago, and yes, man, does that leave a hole in your heart? Right.
John O'Leary: Well, you know, everybody, I hope listening has a hero in their life, and in my case, it, it was well deserved as my father, my, my dad, a veteran, a business owner, a champion for others, a servant, just a great, great man.
I'm sure we'll talk about some specific stories, but, but greatness doesn't always mean just climbing to high new peaks. Greatness also sometimes can mean suffering well. My dad had Parkinson's disease for 30 years, and so he struggled mightily for decades and in particular the la the last 10 or so years.
So his loss leaves a hole in my heart, but also his, his life shows me what's possible, man. Like, he's, he's such an example to me of overcoming.
Erik Weihenmayer: His name is Denny, right?
John O'Leary: Yeah, Denny O'Leary.
Erik Weihenmayer: Oh, good. And like my dad at, at least like, from what I understand, he wasn't like a lovey-dovey, like maybe big hugger.
I mean, my dad wasn't either, my dad was a Marine. He expressed love through just his actions, like his steadfastness, his loyalty. Right. How did your dad express love to you, especially, you know, as you were going through all that trauma of recovering from your burns.
John O'Leary: You and I have been using the word love even before we hit record. We keep using this. I, I spoke earlier today at a prison and you referred to that as lovely. And then we were talking about something else and you said love. And I've been dropping that too. But my dad demonstrated his love for me through his example. First his example of how he loved my mom.
Erik Weihenmayer: Yeah.
John O'Leary: He was the best spouse and she, she was his equal in her own regards.
But my dad was an incredible spouse. I'm one of six kids. I'm the fourth of six. And the d, the way my dad loved each of his kids in their own way remains remarkable. It's something to, uh, look up to. Each of my siblings and I are sure that we were our dad's favorite 'cause that that's how he made us feel, Erik.
Like we, yeah, we were convicted that dad liked us the most. And uh, we still are, we still fight over that. My dad, like your dad was a Marine. My dad was in the army. My dad built up a business. The day I was burned. This story kind of sums up my dad in so many regards. The day I was burned, my dad comes into the emergency room and the day I was burned, I caused the fire.
Like, so I burnt down his house. The devastation that it inflicted not only on his home and the rest of the family, but on me is because of my actions. I was nine. I I didn't mean to, but still. And he, he walks into this room. I'm terrified of his reaction 'cause he is an old army guy and, he marches in. I shut my eyes and crossed my arms.
And then I hear my father's roar come through and he says, John, look at me when I'm talking to you. So I look up and then he goes, I have never been so proud of anyone in my entire life. And today I'm simply glad to be your dad. John, I love you and there is absolutely nothing you can do about it. And as a kid hearing that, you know, I'm thinking like he doesn't know that I burned down the house.
Like he doesn't have any clue what caused all this. But now as a father myself, I'm recognizing what, what dad's showing there is just like this incredible mercy and grace and love. That is the way he loved me when I burnt down homes and part myself the way he loved me when I crashed his car. It's the way he loved me.
When I brought home lousy report cards or great ones, the season didn't change. My dad's love of each of us. And so it, it was just steadfast and consistent
Erik Weihenmayer: And you and I, I, we feel so lucky, right? Because like that kind of, stability, right? That kind of power strength, you know, like they always say like, your parents are an island, right?
And then if you have this really good island to come home to, you can swim further and further away from that island because you always know you have a place to come back to, right? So, so that's, I feel like that was your dad was just this real force of, of stability and love for you that enabled you to climb so high.
John O'Leary: Oh, that, that's well said. And I've, I've never really thought about it on those terms, but all, all six O'Leary kids have ended up living meaningful lives. Like strong, convicted, selfless, community-based lives, man. And, and I, I think you've gotta wonder, like, so what sun are you orbiting? And then as kids, my, my dad was a powerful force, but a force for good and a force for others.
Erik Weihenmayer: Well, I'm thinking about you as in your time of loss. Here, here's a lighter question though. You did burn down your, your house. You, you're nine years old. We all do stupid things when we're a kid. My brother, Mark, incidentally, tried to light a fire inside of a tent and, uh, he poured lighter fluid on top of it and the gas lit him on fire.
Nothing to the degree that you went through, but he, you know, had to have all kinds of, uh, horrible things like pulling his burned skin off of his arms and he had to go through a lot. And, and so do, when, when you tell your story and just the mechanics of it, do you have so many kids who are like, oh, I did something similar when I was a kid.
You must get that all the time.
John O'Leary: You know what, Erik? Uh, here,
Erik Weihenmayer: here's the, I mean, not to the degree that you got burned, but I'm just saying like, all kids are, we're fascinated by fire.
John O'Leary: What is sad, I think is in rooms where I give speeches above the age of like 35. Every guy lines up and says, man, nothing like your story, but yeah.
Right. And then they've got a story like Mark's, which is like, that's crazy. That's a tough story. Or they did something with bottle rockets. I know you used to have bottle rocket wars then with your buddies, like
Erik Weihenmayer: Roman candles in the face.
John O'Leary: Yeah. Ki Boys were crazy. Unfortunately, we're living a lot less of our lives outside.
Boys are taking far fewer risks. Boys are having less and less candle, uh, bottle rocket wars and burning down their homes, which seems like it's good. But we also need a society that is willing to take risks and after they learn their lesson to pat themselves off, learn something important and do better afterwards.
And you don't really learn that through video games. You don't really learn it by watching tiktoks. The ironic thing is, man, I hear it all the time after speeches, but normally from a group of folks above the age of 35 or so.
Erik Weihenmayer: And then it speaks to this, this book I read a long time ago, I think it was called Like Last Child Out Outdoors or something.
And it was, you know, hey, if you want your kids to grow and be creative and be leaders and have executive decision making, throw 'em over the fence and yeah, tell 'em to go play in the forest and that little grove of trees and make dams and un structured time in the outdoors, you know, learning and, and figuring things out, you know?
So yeah. Good, good lesson for people.
John O'Leary: I had a client earlier today and, uh, he shared with me what his, what his son is doing. So yeah, I said, well, gimme an example. So yesterday the son had hockey practice. After hockey practice, they raced to the Spanish lesson, right? And after the Spanish lesson, they finished strong with a swimming lesson.
So that's three very structured things. It seems like it's all very positive, but that's a lot of structure in a child's life. And then I said, how old's your son? And it's a reasonable question, and the answer is four.
Erik Weihenmayer: Oh my gosh.
John O'Leary: This 4-year-old kid who should be, you know, kind of pooping his pants about half the time, and then checking out what happened down there and, and doing everything else that a 4-year-old does, just kind of getting lost in life, is instead learning to walk in single file. And that is what these practices and what this regiment will teach a child. And listen, I love youth sports, man. I, I really do. I think it's phenomenal. And yet too much of, of anything good is too much. And so, uh, like you to send the kids outside, kick 'em on the bottom and say, get lost. Uh, when you hear the bell come home, that's a wonderful way to raise a child.
Erik Weihenmayer: Yeah. Let's bring back the days of, uh, after school you change your clothes and run out and play kickball and basketball and skateboard and scoot, you know, just, you're just fooling around till dinnertime. I love it.
John O'Leary: Right on.
Erik Weihenmayer: Yeah. Yeah. And you were given, uh, John a 1% chance. This looks like mind blowing. A 1% chance of living 1%. That's like, that's insane.
John O'Leary: So the, the math
Erik Weihenmayer: on it, five and a half months in the hospital, I mean, yeah. Start with that. I mean that, that, like what were the procedures that you went through? What was the hell you went through?
John O'Leary: In 2026, as you and I record this, the way they figure out burn mortality is they take the percentage of the body burned.
So you can do the math at home. 100, they add age nine and they've come up with mortality. So when you hear stats, like 1% chance, that's actually not even accurate because there's no percent, like this child does not come through this thing. Back in 1987 when it occurred. And so then you've gotta ask yourself, well, how did that happen, man?
How, how, how in the world did, this thing a hundred percent burn? How did you survive that? And the reason why I love sharing my story is because of how little of it I did. So, like, you know, you know, you and I talked on our podcast about how like, I just love Sherpas, man. I think the mountain climbers are studs.
But let me meet the one who carries the gear and shows them the safer path and brings them down safely, takes the risks, and, and would, would die alongside of the person they're climbing with. Like, show me that guy, and I will show you a hero. So in my case, Erik, I had mighty parents. I had incredible siblings, I had great doctors, great nurses.
We had letters that came in from around the country and around the world. The Pope Billy Graham trees were planted in Israel. This was a community effort to fight with this little child. And you add it all up and the end, the impossible happens.
Erik Weihenmayer: Yeah. Tell me about the procedures, like some of the mechanical stuff, like what, what did they do with you? And then I want to ask you about that amazing, I think it was a nurse or rehab assistant that you had that just was such a powerful force in the movie.
John O'Leary: Awesome. So, so I mean, some about procedures going into the gory detail, I don't think, does any of us any, any
Erik Weihenmayer: real go details?
John O'Leary: But you, you mentioned
Erik Weihenmayer: just to paint the picture because I mean, like, you know, nobody probably, people don't really know, you know, the, you know, how, how the sausage is made.
I don't know how else to say it.
John O'Leary: Be grateful. I mean, you probably never wanna watch the Oscar Meyer man go to work, you know, instead just have to eat the barbecue with a little ketchup and mustard,
Erik Weihenmayer: right? Yeah.
John O'Leary: But here's, here's how this sausage is made. With burn care you can't start healing until you rip off the bad,
Erik Weihenmayer: right?
John O'Leary: So it's this really unusual process where the, the body that is burned, third degree will never again heal. It just, it won't heal, right?
Erik Weihenmayer: Yeah.
John O'Leary: And so they've gotta take parts of the body that aren't burned third degree, it's called the donor site. They cut skin from there. It's almost like a light filet, like you gotta cut into a layer of skin.
They run it through a waffle press to double the, the stretch value, and then they place it on the parts of your body that have been burned. So in, in my case, it's 87% third degree, which means 13% are, you can draw from, but part of that was my face. They weren't able to pull from the face. So for me, 13 different times they went to the scalp.
And they would take a layer of skin, almost like a postage stamp sizes. They would double it in size. They start with your core. You know this from climbing. You gotta keep the core safe. You may lose fingers, man, but you gotta save the core. So they start with my chest and then my tummy, then my back, lower back, upper back.
Then they go to your bottom, upper thighs and onward from there. And so week after week, it's every Tuesday morning, they would do these, these surgeries, take skin from the good, place it on the bad, slowly bring the the patient back to life. For us, it took a couple dozen surgeries. It took five and a half months in hospital.
It took a lot. I think it took a miracle. I, I believe in grace. I think it took a miracle. It took a lot of people working for this thing to become a reality. And it took a lot of people encouraging. I, I think without a patient's belief that they can endure.
Erik Weihenmayer: Yeah.
John O'Leary: All of this work is in vain.
Erik Weihenmayer: Yeah.
John O'Leary: And so, undoubtedly Erik, like I had a lot of people just whispering and encouraging me that tomorrow will be better.
And, uh, I'm grateful for that encouragement because I believed them.
Erik Weihenmayer: Yeah. That gratitude's in your voice and, uh, you know, um. I, you know, I know that story is hard to tell and it's hard even to listen to, but, but I kind of pride myself on like, I, I want people to know the grittiness of life. Like, life is gritty, man.
It's not rainbows and unicorns. It's grit, you know, and blood and skin grafts, and we gotta deal with that stuff. Right. Tell me about that. Amazing, oh, go, go ahead and then tell me about that amazing guy.
John O'Leary: Well, you, you talk about great, like, the nice thing about surgeries is you're pretty much sleeping.
So like, man, it's like the best part of the week is the surgery. Like, here we go, doc, see you in a couple hours. But the worst part of the week, there are two really difficult parts, but the worst part are the daily bandage changes. So for those, and Erik, I know you've been injured many times, like when you peel off a bandaid, bandaid or bandage, like it can be brutal.
But when the bandaid covers your entire body, a hundred percent burn. A. Uh, it, it takes two and a half hours of bandages change, and they do it every day, sometimes twice a day, depending on the infections going on in your body. And so you are watching as they slowly lower you into a tub of water. You're watching as they peel off layer after layer, after layer of bandages.
It's agonizing. Then they debride the body. It's when they like, kind of cut away the stuff that is not good. They then raise you from the water. They dry you off, they rem, medicate, rewrap, and then bring you back into your room. And this happens every day, two and a half hours, each process, and sometimes twice a day.
And the reason why this is worth hearing is not only do burn patients go through this, so God bless them, but the staff man, back to the Sherpa example. This, this is the most thankless, most difficult work I've ever been around. And the patients when they get older, are fighting every step along the way.
Like, no one wants to go through this, right? It's agonizing. They're being cursed at, they're being fought, they're being punched, and they do it. And they do it for not much more than minimum wage. And so when you think about the agony that burn patients go through, this is true, but I think the only people who have it worse are the, the staff that support their healing.
So, man, I just wanted people to hear that. And then, because you're big into training, like physical therapy is no joke. Like getting ready to climb is hard, but, but getting ready after you've been stationary for five and a half months to break through scar tissue mm-hmm. And learn how to use a hand again, and then an arm, and then move and then get up and then move your feet and stretch that ankle.
And it's so hard. And, uh, the most intimate point, and you saw it in the movie, is when, like they, they used to take the little burn patients and they would put 'em into broom closets or supply closets, and they would do that to get them away from the other patients so that the, the cries wouldn't be hurting down the hall.
And, uh, they would shut the door. They would put a towel in my mouth and one nurse or one therapist would hold me down and the other PT would just rip man and stretch the joints. And man, it's, it is torture. And yet there's an old,
Erik Weihenmayer: do you feel, when you relive that, do you feel the trauma again? Like do you feel viscerally? Do you remember like that feeling or has it been so much time that you've kind of moved on?
John O'Leary: It's funny, I, I remember the dread more than the agony,
Erik Weihenmayer: right?
John O'Leary: You, you like when this is around like at three o'clock is when they come for pt, that that countdown toward what you, toward torture, man.
Right. I remember that more distinctly than the cries and the time in the broom closet or the yellow mats. Like, I, I remember that of course. But for me it's more like, like you have all these memories. Some, some of them very horrible, but you remember them almost agnostically. Like you just, eh, god, that sucked.
But it's almost more like, eh, that sucked. Rather than like really feeling it. When I think of watching the clock move toward three, I. That dread. You could draw the parallel into what this means for us in our lives. So often the dread of what is to come is worse than the actual event.
Erik Weihenmayer: Of course.
John O'Leary: And, uh, for me, even now as an, I mean, this is almost 40 years ago, man, but I still remember the countdown toward three.
Erik Weihenmayer: Yeah. I have this friend who always says, uh, don't bleed until you're cut. Right. So, like, the anticipation of things is worse for most of us, maybe worse, right? Yeah. Well,
John O'Leary: You've referred to it as a, as a superpower, but part of your, your strength in climbing is you're not looking at the top of the mountain.
And you're really not even looking two steps ahead. Uh, one step's plenty for right now. And I think the more we can get in the moment and be hyper-focused on this moment, it's all you got. And then the next reach, and then the next step. Man, that's, that's plenty in life.
Erik Weihenmayer: Yeah, for sure. But most of us mortal humans, we do bleed a little before we're cut.
We just like worry and we have anxiety, you know? So I think that's human. Yeah. So tell me about that. Tell me about that guy now. 'cause I love, I watched the movie. He was my favorite character in the movie.
John O'Leary: So the cool thing is the guy who played him, the actor, his name is Devon Franklin.
Devon's a stud man. When you see this in your mind, I don't know who you saw, but who you should have seen as like Apollo Creed.
Erik Weihenmayer: Yeah, I kind did see him. Yeah.
John O'Leary: African American stud with muscles coming out of muscles, and yet in my guy's case, humble and soft spoken and tender, but tough.
So my guy's name was Roy. He was a burn tech. You know, these guys work, it's a hazardous job and it's difficult work. I, I think he suffers with PTSD still from all the work he did for decades. But Roy, this burn tech would come into my room every day. He would untether me from the bed. Burn patients are tied down, so they, it's, there's a lot of reasons for that, but they tie us down.
So he would unhook me from the bed. He would get me on my feet and Erik, like, I can't stand man. I can bear no weight. I had no muscle mass. And he would just walk me back toward the bandage change. And on the walk back, this bigger than life character would say to me, boy, listen to me. You are going to walk again.
You might as well get used to it. Move those legs today, you walk and I'll walk with you.
Erik Weihenmayer: That gives me,
John O'Leary: puts tears in mind. Then he would usually say something like, you doing okay? Boy? And I would say, you
No.
He would say, too bad, man. Too bad. Because too, today you walk and I'll walk with you. Now go. And when, when he says, go like, I'm not moving muscles, man, he's kicking my left foot.
Then he is kicking my right foot. He's kicking my left foot, then he is kicking my right foot. He's causing pain that doesn't need to be suffered because the blood is racing from my upper, upper body to my lower extremities. It just, it's causing pain, but it's also creating vision. And although I never walked under his care, like every day, that man would come into my room for five and a half months, get me up, drag me toward the bandage change, and make me have this sensation of walking again.
Erik Weihenmayer: Hmm. Hey everybody, this is Erik and I want to take a little break from our interview to tell you about No Barriers. Obviously, we're interviewing these amazing No Barriers pioneers, but behind this podcast is an organization called No Barriers predicated on the idea that what's within us is stronger than what's in our way.
Our mission at No Barriers is to help people with disabilities, to break through barriers, to tap into the light of the human spirit and to reclaim their lives, sometimes to reclaim their potential in the business of shifting mindsets. And it's proud work and I hope you'll get involved. Learn more about us.
Check out our newsletter. NoBarriersusa.org, nobarrierspodcast.com.
Didn't you, uh, see him again? Yeah, I think you mentioned that like you saw him at a talk or something.
John O'Leary: It's a remarkable story. I mean, in the movie it's kind of summed up kind of quickly, kind of just shows back up again, which is cool.
And it doesn't seem like it's real, except everything in the movie actually did happen. But sometimes being able to like long form story tell so much better. So Roy disappeared. He, he moved, we lost touch. And then a client called Alabama Power. In the movie, it's um, it's worldwide technology, but in, in real life it's Alabama Power.
They had me speak after the storms of 2011. Mm. A thousand miles of storm damage hit the state of Alabama. And, and John's job was just to go by community after community to encourage. So I fell in love with them and I think they fell in love with the story and this nurse who I lost touch with. So they paid a private investigator to track him down.
It takes the man two and a half weeks, they track him. They tell 'em what's going on. They, they, they put him on an airplane, Erik. They pick him up in a Lincoln Town car. They reconnected with an old patient. I love it. And dude, like, it, it, it was my final day. It was in a little town called You Fall, Alabama.
And the, the guy in charge of the meeting says, what would he say to you? And I said, boy, you're gonna walk again. And, and then this guy says, oh man, I bet it sounded more like this. And then the real Roy talks. Uhhuh. And dude, like,
Erik Weihenmayer: you didn't know he was there.
John O'Leary: Oh God no. I didn't know he was there. Oh God. I didn't know he was alive.
Erik Weihenmayer: Uhhuh.
John O'Leary: And I hear over the loudspeaker, boy, you're, you know, you are walking again. I am proud to walk with you. Did I? I lost it, man.
Erik Weihenmayer: You must have.
John O'Leary: Well, there's this picture I have hanging in my office and it's this, it's Apollo Creed essentially hugging me and I'm crying. And you see, you know, you can tell when a guy's hugging and then when a guy's like, dude, you're, you're not getting outta my grasp.
His right arm has my sparkle, kinda like tethered up. And it's, it's his hand is deeply impressed into my back and it is the hug of friends who, who love each other, and it's been too long, man. So, uh, yeah, I, I love that story. I love that moment. I love Roy.
Erik Weihenmayer: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Beautiful. Now, when you got home from the hospital, well, I'll, I'll back up.
I, I have a friend who, whose kid, just barely survived cancer, you know, and, and because the parents kind of almost have survival, guilt, you know, and again, this is not judgy like, and that's very, very natural. They are just so happy that this kid survived that they kind of let him run rough shot. You know, he is like able to kind of do whatever and it's maybe been to his detriment because
yes,
you know, he doesn't have a, a job yet.
And again, they're just like so happy that he is alive and they just don't want anything to happen to him. You know, they, they coddle him. Your parents certainly did not do that. there's this guy I interviewed Kyle Maynard, who is a quadruple amputee, and he's climbed mountains. He's lost his legs at the knees and his arms at the elbows, and he would be in the sandbox with his sister.
And he wanted to figure out so badly how to pour sand over her head that he somehow figured out how to just take his elbows and pick up the shovel and dump sand on his sister's head somehow. Your story reminds me of that, you know what I mean? Your family did not let you, just retreat and, and, and be this, this kid who now is, you're just happy that John is back and alive and let's just like keep him safe now.
John O'Leary: Well, so I, I wrote a book years ago and there was an article in Parent magazine and they took a part of my book and it actually got negative reviews in the parent magazine. And the story they used was when John came home from the hospital, how did his mom celebrate it?
Mm-hmm.
And, uh, here's what the story essentially was in that, in that article.
So I come home, I have no fingers, I'm in a wheelchair. I got, you know, either I'm open sores or scars and there's nothing in between. Like this is, it's a train wreck, but we lived, so we have a party, eventually everybody leaves, and then it's just the family. It's my mom and dad and six siblings and a dog.
And, uh, my mom made my favorite dinner, like augra and potatoes. Erik, I'm a freak, dude. I that
Erik Weihenmayer: hungry.
John O'Leary: Well, c come on man. She'll make 'em aug, rot, potatoes and, uh, steak and whatever else. The, the problem was, I, I, I can't hold anything with my hands. So my sister Amy grabs a fork. She scoops up some potatoes, starts bringing it toward my mouth.
And, and then to my right, I hear my mother say, Amy, drop the fork. Drop the fork. If John's hungry, he'll feed himself tonight. And, uh, I remember looking to my right, and this is emotional man, but I remember looking at my right, seeing my mom down there, like kind of chewing away. And, and I'm like, what? What are you talking about, mom?
I can't eat. And she doesn't look at me. She looks at Amy and she says, if he's hungry, he'll feed himself. And I'm gonna make a very long story, far shorter, but two hours into dinner, everyone else is gone. The plate had been flipped two different times. I had cried. I had been very sad. She ruined the homecoming.
And I had figured out a way, much like your little buddy in the sandbox to wedge a fork between two splinted hands and to scoop up those potatoes and bring 'em to my mouth. And man, I, I remember chewing the entire time thinking, I hate my mom.
Erik Weihenmayer: Of course you did.
John O'Leary: Like this lady sucks. I just hate mom. But then I've picked up a second bite of potatoes and a third, and, and dude, like, thank God for tough, difficult, sighted parents who have this vision for what is possible in life, like the things we can't see as kids.
My you. You have the same kind man. Your dad. I love your dad. The way your dad, I talked about this with you before. The way your dad would encourage you to get on your bike and ride and take the jumps when you can't even really see, that is not good parenting. I mean, this leads to kids
Erik Weihenmayer: not safe either. My dad and my two brothers laid down between the ramps and let me jump over them like on my bike.
Idiot
John O'Leary: idiot. And because of that
Erik Weihenmayer: idiot, there's a man, idiot climb,
John O'Leary: idiot. There's a man who's climbed Everest, interviewing a guy who's got a film about his life, who's writing a couple books, who's just spoke to a group of prisoners about possibility. Like, man, thank heavens for the people who made us do the things we knew would be hard.
It could get us hurt.
Yeah.
But they were there with us when we did it, and I think that's part of it. This isn't abuse. She didn't leave me and shut the door. She sat in, I'm, come on man, this sucks. No parent wants to see a child suffer.
Erik Weihenmayer: No.
John O'Leary: And she sat there with me and never helped. And to me that is, that is just such loving parenting.
Erik Weihenmayer: One of your parents asked you like straight up, like, do you want to die or do you wanna live? Right. Something? I'm paraphrasing.
John O'Leary: No, that's a spot on question. So it was the It's the same mom. Same parent, yeah. Uh, you're talking about the story of eating. That's the night I came home from the hospital. But my first day in the hospital, my dad was all loved, but my mom was all tough, man.
Yeah. So she came in and I said, am I gonna die mom? And I assumed she was gonna say, no, you're not gonna die. But instead she looked at me and she said, do you want to, which is bold. I mean, you, you recognize you all people.
Erik Weihenmayer: Yeah. I mean, that's time.
John O'Leary: That's time in life.
Erik Weihenmayer: Oh, that's a dangerous question.
John O'Leary: Exactly right. So she recognized though, you can't climb for someone else.
Erik Weihenmayer: Yeah.
John O'Leary: Right. I at the end of the day, right, someone's gotta put their left foot in front of their right. They have to, they have to own their agency. And I said to her, mom, I don't, I don't want to die. And uh, she said, well, good. Then look at me. You take the hand of God.
You walk their journey with him, but you fight John like you never fought before. She said, your daddy and I will be with you. We're not leaving, but do your part and fight. And Erik like that, that that was more than one man of
Erik Weihenmayer: Yeah.
John O'Leary: What ended up being a very difficult fight, but one that we committed to the outcome before we even took the first step into it.
Erik Weihenmayer: Right. You know, like at No Barriers we talk about this idea of a rope team and just to kind of reinforce this, that we've already been talking about and hammering on. Anyone who's breaking, trying to break through barriers, trying to get through some kind of monumental hurdle. One of the biggest elements in all these stories, right, is allies, right?
Like people who lift you up, right? Because I'll tell you, I've had that so many times in my life where like I don't believe in the outcome. My friends will believe harder than I do, and they like that rubs off, right?
John O'Leary: Yeah. And we need that. And we're because of technology. I love technology, man. We're using it right now.
That's, it's beautiful. Yeah. And it is allowing us to camp up in our own basements. And just fade and do life on our own. And it's very easy to be surrounded by followers and be completely alone. What, what you're describing man, is the type of person who knows you well enough to kick you in the rear end or hug you around the neck and walk with you forward.
That they know what your limits are, what your barriers are, and they also know what you're, what you thought it was and how you can move past it. And you've had countless folks on your team that have seen just over the horizon what you did not see for yourself. And likewise, man, I've, I've, I've been blessed with an awful lot of folks who saw possibility before I did.
Erik Weihenmayer: Amazing. When you got back to school as this kid now, who's changed, like physically in all kinds of ways. I guess I can like relate in a little bit like going blind. Like I did not wanna stand out. I wanted to blend in. I wanted to be invisible, right? I just wanted to be one of the guys again.
And that was the. Maybe the hardest part of that experience for me. I think your story is a little bit similar, right? You kind of wanted to be invisible. I think you you didn't wanna stand out.
John O'Leary: I didn't want my scars to stand out. Like you, you, you, you didn't mind standing out as long as it wasn't your blindness that stood out.
Erik Weihenmayer: Right, exactly. Yes, you exactly right.
John O'Leary: As, as long as it wasn't the fingerless hands and ugly arms and legs and tummy and everything else, that was I, I viewed as being terrible about me. I liked being the class K clown. As long as you were looking at my jokes, not me. And I liked playing. I came back, dude, there's a great picture I just bumped into of, of John playing soccer and there's still bandages on him.
He's been over, it looks like a train wreck. Like what parent sends this kid out on a soccer field. I didn't mind being on the soccer field as long as they were looking at me chasing that ball, not the scars, of the person chasing that ball. So for, for me, like that, that was, that's just foundational.
And what I, what I'll say you talk about the rope team, man. Two, two quick stories. The first is I was outta school for 16 months and there was, in a very small school, 24 kids. There was a very gaping hole in the middle of that classroom. Like they used to sit alphabetically. And those are just about in the middle.
So the middle of the room, there's a middle desk, empty. Man for 16 months. You like, think about that. It's like a visceral reminder to everybody else that something's gone here. And uh, and that can either break you or make you as a, not only for me, but my class. What I will say is in that little classroom, in the movie Soul On Fire, there are firefighters that put down the blaze.
They're not actors, they're actual firefighters.
Erik Weihenmayer: Isn't that cool?
John O'Leary: And of those actual firefighters, two of them are classmates of mine from grade school. Wow. So these kids saw devastation and recognized they wanna be on the frontline to redeem it for others. So I think, I think that is way cool. And then secondly, when I was married to Beth, like, you know, long story short, John survives. Wow.
And goes on and has a heck of a life. Mary's a beautiful girl and at the wedding she had all these bridesmaids, which meant I had to figure out how to invite for the guys. Huh? Uh, eight, one of them has the last name O'Leary. That's my brother, my best man. But six of the, of the guys at my wedding party are classmates from grade school.
Erik Weihenmayer: Hmm.
John O'Leary: And I, I think this little fire that was so devastating was also something that drew this kid, this group of kids together in such a mature way. So they were on the ropes team together. It wasn't just a poor little victim, John, you know, poor little kid. I'll push 'em. It was, look what we went through and now look what we're going to do together.
So I, I, I look at this class of kids. I was with one of them on Monday night in Daytona. He's, he's the president of a business in Daytona Beach, Florida. They brought us down to speak to their organization plus the Chamber of Commerce. This guy's successful, but as I look around the class, everybody is,
Erik Weihenmayer: yeah,
John O'Leary: I think it's because this, this fire that affected them at age nine and 10 matured them and, and created resiliency within them and bonded them to one another.
Mm-hmm. And it built this little ropes team that they could lean into others, but also draw on the rope to pull others farther up. And man, that's interdependency. We live in a world where everyone wants to be independent. They want to climb the hill by themselves. I did it all by myself, man. And what, you know from your work, and what I know from ours is that that's not success.
That's arrogance. Success is when you can climb together and hug together at the top. And if you don't make it to the top, you hug on your way down and you have a beer at the bottom together and you celebrate life, man, like that, that's success.
Erik Weihenmayer: Hmm. I love that. Well, that's a really positive story. I wanna ask like a weird question about like a, a negative emotion.
What about guilt? Because I've thought about that. Maybe it's just me, but like, I kind of have regrets even though I've had this incredible life and I have wonderful relationships, you know, like, oh, I treated that person poorly, or, you know, I could have done that better. But gr guilt's just like, like we were talking about before, anticipation.
I don't know if there's a need for it, really. It's crippling. Yeah. Did you ever struggle with guilt? You know, just like, oh, even though it's entirely not your fault, you're a kid, right? Do you, was that something you had to fight through at all?
John O'Leary: Yeah.
Erik Weihenmayer: Or were you just like, Hey, that was a dumb kid and moved. We're all moved on.
John O'Leary: Well, so I think the answer is yes and. So it's like, you gave me either or and the answer is
Erik Weihenmayer: yeah. Right. It's probably both.
John O'Leary: So. I think to heal Erik.
Erik Weihenmayer: Yeah,
John O'Leary: sometimes you gotta fake it to make, make,
Erik Weihenmayer: that's what I'm getting at.
Yeah. Yeah.
John O'Leary: Uh, AA will teach you fake it to make it sometimes.
Erik Weihenmayer: Yeah.
John O'Leary: You don't, you don't have to, not like drinking to try to like your life and fake it until one day you recognize, okay, I, I think I'm starting to like things a little more. And so for me, I just pretended like nothing was wrong, nothing to see here.
I'm all good, man, let's hit the soccer field. Or later on, hit the bar later on, hit the slopes, man, let's just attack life. Right? And so I never acknowledged my brokenness, never acknowledged my limitations, never acknowledged barriers, and certainly never acknowledged the fire, which served me relatively well for, you know, decades.
Right? And then at 28 I started being far more introspective and that's what eventually would lead to speaking in books and everything else. But what led to that, it was my dad had Parkinson's disease. And, uh, because of that, he lost his job and gave him more time. So he wrote a book called Overwhelming Odds, and it's a story of what happened when his son was burned.
So he writes this unauthorized biography of my life
Erik Weihenmayer: of you.
John O'Leary: It's my picture of the freaking front of it, man. And for the first time in my whole life, I read about me, not, not the fate, not the partier, not the black diamonds, not, not that version, the me that I'd never really looked at. And man, that was hard.
It's hard to even talk about because I recognized for the first time what I put my mom and dad through.
Erik Weihenmayer: Yeah.
John O'Leary: And if you take that one step farther and you should, my dad died of Parkinson's disease, people don't know, know exactly what causes it, but undoubtedly one of the things that triggers it, stress. Well.
That, that you have to, if you're at all honest with yourself, you have to wonder what, what's my part in that? I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna die on that hill, but I do wonder about it. I did and do sometimes feel guilt over that. So I, I wrestle with that. My siblings, I'd always viewed me as being the one who got burned.
And then I read my mom and dad's book and I read these stories, man, of what it was like for them to, every time the phone rang for months, months to think, my god, my, my brother's dead. That's what that call means, right? My, my, my brother's gone. They had to go on sleeping pills, all of all five kids, man, because they, they saw something so traumatic and they were dealing with something so traumatic.
They lost their family home. They lived with strangers. Like, this is a hard life for them. And so I, I feel guilt about all of that. And what I'll say is guilt can be redeemed. Like our family today is as close and as loving and as celebratory of one another's successes. When my sister moves into a bigger home and I celebrate it mm-hmm.
When my sister goes through a divorce, but she comes out on the other side even more healthy, I celebrate it. When my brother wins a case, he's an attorney, man, I celebrate it. And when John has a movie come out, the, the kids in the front row are my, my siblings and they're next to my mom. And the only reason my dad isn't there is because he just passed away.
Like, so the cool thing about our family is we went through hell together and we rejoice in one another's successes together. So I, I felt a lot of guilt for a long time, but I don't feel it anymore.
Erik Weihenmayer: I love that. Yeah. That's really important for people to hear, you know, how, how that process works.
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Erik Weihenmayer: You also were pretty, um, open-minded after your trauma. You kind of had this like say Yes policy. Like Yeah. Hell yeah. I don't know, I can't remember what you specifically called it, but that seems just like another, cool kind of policy in life.
Just hell yeah. I'll try that. I'll do that. Right.
John O'Leary: Yeah. With Ropes man, with a climbing crew. Right. Of course. I think my mistake as a kid was to say hell yes, and do whatever it was from jumping off roofs to, uh, yeah, I think I can drink a whole bottle of that. Let's see. Yes, and I, what I was doing retrospectively, you all, it's all, it's really hard to identify what's happening when you're in the moment, like as a kid and, and really, 'cause so many of us are, are kids as adults.
As adults too. We're, we're kind of living this masked life of who we think others will want us to be.
Erik Weihenmayer: Right.
John O'Leary: And that's, I always assumed as a kid that's true. I kind of knew it. I knew it. I assumed when people grew, that's not something they deal with. Now that I'm an an adult man, people don't grow out of that.
They, they can work through that, but it's not, it doesn't happen just with age and numbers. You've gotta really work on yourself. And so I said hell yes to everything. Oftentimes to my own detriment. Today, I still live. Yes. That's why I was speaking, like you and I talked about it to a prison today.
Erik Weihenmayer: Yeah.
John O'Leary: You know, like, yes, let's do this, man. Let's, let's serve these guys. Let's remind 'em that redemption is possible. Let's remind 'em the second chapter is gonna be better than the, than the first. So I, I still try to say yes. I've got a buddy who's an improv, his name is Travis Thomas. He's a total stud. And in improv, the, the, what great improv people do on stage is they say yes and.
Yeah. So if you and I are doing a little improv right now about the art, the last time you and I went to a beach together, Erik, I would say something crazy and you would say Yes. And, and then you build it and you make it even more crazy and then you finish it. And I say, oh, that's right Erik. Yes. And mm-hmm.
And then I go, and so there's something really cool about,
Erik Weihenmayer: and we skinny dip down the, the beach.
John O'Leary: Yes. And
Erik Weihenmayer: I
John O'Leary: saw when you head downstairs and I'll never, never go skinny dipping with you again, Erik. And, and then you say, yes. And at least I had something downstairs. O'Leary, you covered. Well, that
Erik Weihenmayer: I'd be the only guy that couldn't say that though.
John O'Leary: Well, touche man. But the point is, there's something powerful about skinny dipping, climbing, or living where you have a yes and policy. Just go, man. Just go.
Erik Weihenmayer: That's awesome. When you met your wife, Beth, you just talked about her and your wedding, like it's really hard to reveal your vulnerabilities. My version of that.
Was in a past relationship, like I have prosthetic eyes and I'd lost both of my eyes to glaucoma and I was really, I did not want to my partner to know that. And it's a really vulnerable moment when I popped my eyes out and said, do you still love me?
John O'Leary: Yes.
Erik Weihenmayer: And, but bizarrely the answer is usually yes, I do still love you.
Right? That stuff's irrelevant. What was your version of that? Like, you know, you know, showing Beth your scars, right? Like, these are major scars,
John O'Leary: right? Oh man, there's so much there. Like f first, there's so much in your story, the one you just kind of quickly dropped in and out of. But the idea of showing the worst part of yourself to someone else and having them say, and I still choose you.
Damn. That's good. Yeah. Like that is so good. So I, I hope all of your listeners one day will receive that. And regardless of that, our invitation climbers is to be that voice for someone else.
Erik Weihenmayer: Yeah.
John O'Leary: Like no excuses on that one. So we, we can be that for someone else. We can love 'em in spite of their worst side.
So in my case, you know, you're hearing my voice and hopefully hearing a little bit of joy and optimism and, and just goodness, man. But if you were able to see me, you would see a man who's got scars from his neck to his toes. He walks with a limp on both sides. He has no fingers on either hand, and his arms are encased at about 90 degrees.
So this isn't exactly perfection personified. I mean, this is a guy who's broken, and um, and faking his way through it. So I meet Beth in college and I am a, I'm a fun-loving, joyful guy, life of the party. But I'd never told anybody how I had been burned. I'd never talked about the scars. I try to walk around with my hands in my pocket so no one would even, you know, see it.
Erik Weihenmayer: Right.
John O'Leary: Or holding a beer with both hands firmly. So like they see the, the Bud light, but not the brokenness of the guy holding it with both hands. 'cause he can't use one.
Erik Weihenmayer: Yeah. Uh,
John O'Leary: so that, that was me. And I'm actually, as you and I are talking about
Erik Weihenmayer: the Budweiser sounds like almost like the mask you put on top of yourself.
For sure. Yeah.
John O'Leary: There's so many masks. It's the risk we took on slopes. I'm, I'm a Missouri guy, but we ski every year as kids out Colorado. Man, I was crazy and I was crazy at bars and crazy afterwards, like just reckless because it was all a mask and the Bud light was sort of what fueled it. But, um. I'm looking at Beth right now.
She's, she's brunette with brown eyes, that sparkle, she's got this stunning smile. She's got high cheekbones. She's, she's gorgeous. She belongs in Hollywood, man, but she's too humble to go. She's just, she's awesome. And so I found, I, from the moment I saw her, I, I loved her. And, uh, I pursued her for a while.
And there's a lot to the story, but I, the, the, the point of the, I guess the whole story is we were friends for years. And even though I kept asking her out and she kept saying, no, we remained friends. We remained friends, which means she fell in love with me eventually. Not the outside, not the car, not the cash, not whatever the thing is on the external, not the trophy.
You, you talk, God, you said this beautifully when you came back from Everest with the trophy, not, never let that be the best thing you do.
Erik Weihenmayer: Right.
John O'Leary: Beth never fell in love with the best thing I was because she got to know the worst of me. Yeah. She got to know all of me. And so a couple years later, what, what ultimately changed our relationship, I think was, uh, I'd been pursuing her, pursuing her, pursuing her for me.
And then I had a real candid conversation about my dad, with my dad about it. And, uh, he just talked about loving people in spite of what they give you. Just love them. Yeah. And it was like a, a light just flipped on man. And I stopped pursuing her for me, and I started pursuing her as a friend. And I, I wasn't ever trying to get any, I wasn't trying to get love out of her girlfriend, out of her marriage.
I just, I was there for Beth and I think she saw that then as me not being needy at all. And it became attractive. I started having more confidence in my own walk, like in all in social environments. I think she picked up on that. So, um, long story made short man. She eventually asked me out. we dated for two years.
We've been married for 21. She sees the worst of me and she still chooses it. And the final thing I'll say on this man is I get abs, I get sores on my stomach. It's where my scarring is worst. And it was the last thing I showed her, you know, you know, it's like the very last thing I showed her, I was like, dude, this is part of it.
This is me popping out my eyeballs. Yeah, these are sores that may never go away, Beth. And she doesn't love this story, but it's part of the journey, man. Like when she saw the first time this gorgeous young, 21-year-old brunette bent down and kissed my scars,
Erik Weihenmayer: that's beautiful.
John O'Leary: And it's, it's just her man, like the worst of me wasn't gonna stop her from loving me.
Erik Weihenmayer: Oh my gosh, that's the best story. All your stories are amazing, but that's the best one right there.
John O'Leary: It's her man. She's, she's, she's awesome.
Erik Weihenmayer: You also, um, John, talk about like this idea of intentional living versus kind of accidental living. And I want you to explain that Of course. But, and, and by the way, you are, you know, prolific speaker and writer all over the world.
Uh, so you speak a lot about like, living with intention and, and, and not, not sort of living this accidental life. But I guess like, when I think about that, do you think guys like you and me who went through something and came out the other side and were like, we're still alive. Do you think in a weird, ironic way, it's easier for us to live with more intention?
Like, what about the guy who's just like, kind of never really faced anything too hard and just kind of lives a little bit more of a vanilla life? Like, is is it harder for them to be intentional? Like, tell talk, what, what's your thoughts?
John O'Leary: Yeah, that's, it's awesome. I think that's almost like everything, because if you haven't been burned or blinded, uh, it's possible to sit back passively and endure life.
Erik Weihenmayer: Right?
John O'Leary: And when you are in a situation as a young person when you're 12 and then you go totally blind, or when you're nine and you get burned and you should die, and then you go through life with scars for both of us, you've gotta figure out what, what does life even mean? Like, what am I gonna do with this thing, man?
And, uh, I don't think you need to go through it to be intentional, but I think in going through it, it forces you to be far more intentional, far more present, far more resilient. And one of my friends, he's a, he's a survivor of, um, eight years, in, in Vietnam. He was a, he was a tortured POW
mm.
So it was Captain Charlie Plum.
Charlie Plum endured the worst for eight years. The thing that kept him moving forward, I heard about. Plums a stud. He could not wait to get home and see his wife could. So the thing that kept him going was this vision, eight years of enduring things that you and I can't imagine gets home. And his wife has left him for the neighbor because she thought he was never coming home.
And yet this toughness that he learned in fighting the good fight in Vietnam over those eight years, he put into action to build up an incredible life afterwards. When you look at those guys, the guys, specifically officers who were tortured in Vietnam, they ultimately did far better than almost anyone else, their, their peer class or anyone else who served in Vietnam.
So it's very strange. The guys who endured eight years of torture would do so well. And Charlie credits it with coming out with a family, your ropes team. Coming out far more intentional, coming out, recognizing he survived the worst. So the little bumps along the road will not skin his knee anymore. He's gonna live a mighty life.
It wasn't just him who did that? Stockdale, McCain. You start going through the list of guys he endured hell with these guys all came home and built lives that mattered. You don't have to vote for, for any of 'em, I don't care. But they built meaningful lives because they endured the worst and they came out highly intentional.
So I'm not inviting anybody to go through eight years of torture to become blind, to get burned, to recognize this,
Erik Weihenmayer: we highly don't recommend it.
John O'Leary: I don't recommend it, man. But I will recommend that the lessons these folks can teach us, you can apply. And in doing so, your life will get far better. And so are the lives of those you love.
Erik Weihenmayer: Yes. And I know, um, you're person of faith, I kind of see faith as like this way we interpret our world, the belief that we put forward, that there's something good, you know, at the end of the river. That it's not doom and gloom. Right? Like it's, it's not logical. Right. It's not science, it's not database, it's, it's faith.
It's a different plane. And so faith has been a big part of your life, right?
John O'Leary: Yeah. And I, I think there's lowercase faith and capital. Faith,
Erik Weihenmayer: yeah. Uhhuh.
John O'Leary: And with the lowercase faith. If you don't have that faith, man, God help you, lowercase God help you. Like seriously you're it. It's gonna be a very difficult row when you can't fathom that tomorrow could be better than today. That the relationship can get better, that you can work through the D addiction, that you can achieve some dream that the world in spite of the headlines can actually become better.
Erik Weihenmayer: Right?
John O'Leary: There's a guy named Greg Esterbrook who's got a book called, it's Better Than It Seems.
It's, it's a worthy read because the world right now, social media and mainstream media are putting in front of you crap after crap after crap. Right? And we are, we now believe that it's never been worse. And yet all the science, all the data, all the metrics states act, it's actually never been better.
Yeah.
You've never had more freedom actually, than right now. You've never had greater opportunities of travel than right now. You've never had better chances to start a business. It's never been a better time to be a person of color, a person who survived something traumatic, A person who loves differently than maybe you were taught in the 1930s and forties and fifties.
Yeah. On and on and on. It's never been better. That does not make it perfect, but it makes it better than they claim. So, my gosh, I, I beg all of us to grab onto lowercase faith. So start there. Okay. Have, have a dream for tomorrow, and then watch what happens. Keep moving toward it with intentionality. Then you brought up, you, you kind of whisper.
I I have a strong capital F faith as well. I, I believe. That it wasn't an accident 10 billion years ago where boom, like crap. That's, that was a crazy explosion. And then there was a weird ass lightning strike and protein somehow collected upon protein leading to life. And then eventually, somehow now you're able to see, and then when you don't have that ability, you, you miss it.
But you're able to figure out how to use your hands and the ability to hear and one another like, man, I don't believe in that. I, I, I believe that there was an intentional God who created this
Erik Weihenmayer: mm,
John O'Leary: who loves us, who's there for us. And, and my personal view on faith and I, I view Christianity as, as my faith path.
And so I believe in a God who came down and walked among us and suffered with us and was hungry like us, and had sore feet and hands and agony like us who died for us. And for me, that gives, that gives me such hope in the biggest capital h sense of the word for tomorrow. Like, I think we are guaranteed a tomorrow that's better than today.
And
Erik Weihenmayer: you had people who walked with you, right? Like, I mean, they were Christ-like in a way. I mean, they weren't Christ obviously, but they were Christ-like in terms of walking with you and, that, that sounded like a, like a little glimmer of your faith right there, right?
John O'Leary: Well, I think that's what some, like some Christians who give everybody else a bad rap get wrong.
They think it's all about heaven. could keep progress. That's, that's partially true. What they miss is heavens now, man, love, love your enemy. Love the one in front of you. Love the struggle. Love the pain. Love the woman at the, well. The, the story of, of the woman at the well is a, basically a prostitute is with her six husband now,
Erik Weihenmayer: right?
John O'Leary: And then this Christian God, Jesus is just loving her. Like, that's our faith man. This opportunity to continually come back home and be redeemed through grace. So I, I was, I experienced that as a kid. I've experienced it many times in many cultures, from many faith backgrounds as an adult. And I try, I try my best to model that today.
Erik Weihenmayer: And how do you think about prayer? Because I, I think I heard you interviewed one time you were saying like, Hey man, I, I'm not gonna pray to get my fingers back. Right. Like, I'm not gonna pray for I know birthday cake, you know, to appear in my life. Right? Yeah. Like it's, it's prayer is different, right? Like, just talk to me a little bit about how that works in your life.
John O'Leary: Well, it is not Santa Claus. And I think praying prayer, this is unfortunate. Like some of the listeners who are not people of Faithful will be like, well, that's bs. I think prayer frequently is about learning how to bend your will toward Gods.
Erik Weihenmayer: Yeah.
John O'Leary: And that doesn't sound good because we want our fingers back and we want our eyesight back, and we want our family member, your dad and my father.
Like, yeah, lost friends along the way. We want them back. And prayer doesn't always do that. I don't know if prayer bends God's will toward ours, but it certainly opens up our eyes toward his will for our lives. And what I've learned along the way is my, my prayer these days, man, it's not about longevity.
It's not about success. It's not about the worldly things. My, my prayer these days is personal wisdom. Like I just, I just wanna grow in wisdom. I don't even know what that means. But dude, if I could be more wise than I am now, I could do a lot better in life. And I don't mean financially. I can, I'm with you.
Oh my. And then I, I, I left a podcast of, of someone who, whose name you would know, so I won't even drop it, but like a, a famous podcaster. And, uh, outside of his, his studio was this big synagogue across the street. And I'm like, dude, what, what is that? And, and, uh, he's like, it's a synagogue. I'm like, well, what are those letters?
Like these big old letters, man. And he goes, that's Hebrew. I'm like, well, I, I don't read Hebrew. What's it say? And he's, it's, he's like, it's quoting an old sacred passage to, to, to the Jewish faith. And he said, uh, it's says, seek justice, love mercy, walk humbly with God. So my prayer these days hearkens back to words written thousands of years ago, man, dude, seek justice, love mercy, walk humbly with God.
That's my prayer. And when I, when I prayer that, when I pray that boldly, when I'm cold or tired or hungry, or whatever the deal is, the things I would've otherwise been praying for, like, Hey, fix this. I'm, that's not my prayer anymore. I just wanna seek justice, love mercy, walk humbly with God.
Erik Weihenmayer: You've thought about so much of this stuff, so I want to ask you like a really unfair question.
I just like, I, I'm, and I'm gonna apologize ahead of time. How, then, how do we, how do we reconcile, like the kid who got burned up in Gaza and didn't have the amazing, you know, family support. Didn't grow up in America. Like, I struggle with that. You know what I mean? Yeah. Like, I, I don't know if there's, there's probably no answer to that.
But
John O'Leary: so there's, but Job is, the oldest book in the Bible is not Genesis. So in order it goes Genesis and then downstream, there's a book called Job. But Scripture. Scripture historians believe that Job is actually the, the first book written by the Jewish Forefathers and Mothers. And, and it's a story of suffering and loss of everybody and family in, in Job's case.
And there's this cool prayer that Job offers about halfway through. And it says the Lord gives the Lord takes blessed, be the name of the Lord. And that's a, that's a crazy concept that when the child comes home and you know, everybody's there cheering and the band is playing, busted, be the name of the Lord, and a child who is burned in Gaza.
This grotesque sad conflict between nations and people. And in both seasons we're supposed to somehow proclaim blessed, be the name of the Lord. I think though in either case, whether John comes home or a child does not, we have to recognize the way God in my mind wants us to work is to work to redeem the situation.
It's not to just chalk it up as well, that's bad luck or good luck. It's to step forward and to try our very best in the places where we can to make a difference for others.
Erik Weihenmayer: Right?
John O'Leary: And so I think the childhood comes home in 1987 to the band or the childhood dies in Gaza in 2025 or six. Invites both of us, in both ears of time to say, what can I do with my life to make it about something bigger than climbing my next hill for me?
And maybe that's the invitation because when we see the, the, the child who's dead or we see the child who's burned, in both cases, we take a second glance and we say, wow, this isn't right. This isn't right. And, and in both cases we're invited to do something differently with our lives afterwards. And so maybe that's how God works through these situations.
Erik Weihenmayer: That's such a good perspective, you know, because it's like what we can do as living beings. Yeah. That's great. This is so good. We, we have a lot of folks within our No Barriers community where it's easy to get shoved to the sidelines. It's easy to be a victim, and I think that's another thing that you talk a lot about.
Like how do you break out of this idea of victimhood? And kind of become a self-actualized person. Right?
John O'Leary: Man, I mean, you're, I'll probably cry by the end of the story, but you were asking me earlier about my dad, and you're like, what, what kind of dad was he? Yeah. And I, I told you about the words he spoke, uh, again and again in my life.
I love you and there's nothing you can do about it. But those weren't always the words he used. So there, there was a time, about 18 months or so after I got out of the hospital, I'm getting ready to go back to school. And Erik, I am a victim man. I'm fingerless, I'm busted. I'm scarred where there aren't scars, there are wounds.
I'm in a wheelchair and I don't want to go to school. And I keep asking the question, why? Why me? Why me? Why me? And my father, who was having this conversation with me finally stood up. He shut the bedroom door, he comes back over to me, puts his hands in my legs, looks me square in the eyes, man, almost like military style.
And he says, John, dammit, why not you? The, the terrible thing has happened in your life, and if you wanna be a victim to it for the rest of your life, have at it. Nobody's ever gonna blame you for that one. And then he goes, or you can be a victor and every room we roll you into, or maybe God willing, one day you walk into, people will look up at awe at what you've overcome and what you're doing.
And then he goes, John, look at me. Victim or Victor, your choice, not mine. My father leans forward, he kissed me on the forehead. He stands up, he walks out, and he leaves this 10-year-old morphine laced, wheelchair bound nobody reflecting on that challenge, John, victim or Victor. Your choice, not mine. And Erik did.
Like, I had to wrestle with that before going back to fifth grade. I had to wrestle with it when my future wife said, no, I don't want to date you. Which was a collection of all the other rejection I'd faced sexually and intimately in my life leading up to that. So it's not just kind of funny, it was a reminder of how broken I am.
I had to face it when the first job interview didn't go my way. Like with the first speech was a freaking back flip into the defense belly. Like again and again. You gotta decide, dude, how do you wanna show up in this moment? No, not the previous ones in this moment, victim or victor. Your choice not mine.
That that is, that is core to a successful, significant life.
Erik Weihenmayer: Hmm. You know, it's something I've been think I was thinking about as you were talking. For a long time, like I dealt with blindness, right? Like I, I dealt with it. I found a place for it, but I always saw it as like a deficit that I was crawling back from, that I was climbing out of.
Right?
And, and as I've gotten older, a shift has happened, and I hope this doesn't sound like hubris, but like, I'm proud of the hard shit I've gone through. Like, I, like, I'm like, I got through that and I survived it, and I learned something. And like some people never get to see, never get to dig in and go through life and say, you know, I survived.
I'm flourishing, I'm thriving, I'm not a victim, and here are my scars. I'm kind of like proud of them. Wow. Is that weird?
John O'Leary: No, but it's beautiful and you should be. Yeah. And, and do you, were you able to see when Jaws came out?
Erik Weihenmayer: Yeah, that as scary as it can be. Oh my God. When that poor little guy went flying into his mouth, Ugh.
John O'Leary: But there's a scene in like, I don't know, three quarters of the way through where um, an old sea captain and a scientist, like a biologist are talking about their skulls. Yeah. And they're rolling up their sleeves and they're drinking whisky and they're having a heck of a time and they're saying, you know, they're banging on the door and everything else they're doing, but.
They're showing to one another their scars with pride. And I think there's something so cool to recognize like those, those eyes man, that are no longer even yours. That's a beautiful thing. Look at the scar guys. I wanna show you something. Look at this. And in spite of this scar and everything that it really means, it means I can't see where I'm going.
It means life is actually really hard. It means I grab the water sometimes and it's hot instead of cold. Like all this crap that I deal with that you guys can't even imagine. But it also means all the cool things I've done are the result of overcoming a deficit. What a gift. And so scars can reveal to others not only what you've overcome, but how they can overcome more in their life.
And so like today, going back to these poor prisoners, man, like listen, if they wanna be like Jean Je tethered for the rest of their life to a tattoo that defines who they are, you know, broken inmates, man, nobodies that have at it. But if they want to go back into life when they are let out, these guys are gonna spend somewhere between one year and 35 years in prison.
if they wanna come out of that and be able to point back to this time in prison as the turning point, the scar that led to the redemption and led to them being able to love people differently, lead people differently because of that experience. That's not a bad scar. It's a beautiful one.
Erik Weihenmayer: Wow. I can't let you off the hook without promoting your movement because like no barriers, you have this movement Live Inspired Together 49, almost 50 chapters like around the world, right?
John O'Leary: Yeah. I mean we're, we're like, when you look at your life of what, where you've climbed and gone and done, like, it's like what? Like, uh, I don't think so, man. I think I'm still that 12-year-old on a dirt bike crashing. So I, I like you, I, I'm blown away at some of the things we've achieved and um, I guess if you guys bottom line, man, I'm.
We use movies, books, community podcast to do life with individuals. Like that's the goal. It's like to walk with people and to love them where they are. And so you can learn about all of our work at john O'Leary inspires.com. So john O'Leary inspires.com, and we have links to everything there. But, um, I'm here because people fought for me and we try to be the type of organization that fight for others.
Erik Weihenmayer: Beautiful. John, it's so great. I feel like a kindred spirit to you and like we gotta hang out more. I'd love to ski with you. I, you've probably, be down the mountain before I got 30 feet down the mountain. But I'm a good blind skier. We need to, and we need to partner because no barriers and your movement are so similar. You know,
John O'Leary: if there's one person I, I resent on the mountain, it's when some blind dude skis past me. I mean, there's, there's nothing more offensive in life than when that happens. So now I know who I'm resenting. It's Erik flying past me on some, some blue.
Erik Weihenmayer: Nice. I'm gonna be skiing next week. I'm, even though we have marginal snow here in Colorado, but it's gonna be amazing.
John O'Leary: I'll tell you what, dude, I I, I, I would treasure a day on the slopes with you, or a day in your presence. Man, I, I look up to you and I thank you for teaching the rest of us that there are no barriers other than the ones we put in front of ourselves.
Erik Weihenmayer: Thanks, John. I, I'll give you a virtual hug somehow. Cool.
John O'Leary: Looking forward
Erik Weihenmayer: to it. I really appreciate it. Thanks, Erik. Great. Thanks everyone. Thanks John. No barriers to everyone.
Didrik Johnck: The production team behind this podcast includes producer Didrik Johnck. That's me, an audio engineer, Tyler Kottman. Special thanks to the Dan Ryan Band for our intro song guidance, and thanks to all of you for listening. If you enjoyed this show, please subscribe, share it, and hey, we'd be thrilled for a review.
Show notes can be found nobarrierspodcast.com. There's also a link there to shoot me an email with any suggestions or guest ideas for the show. Thanks so much and have a great day.
