Podcast Ep209 Paul Bikis and Josh Hancock
Didrik Johnck: Welcome. Welcome to The No Barriers Podcast, hosted by Erik Weihenmayer. He's in the studio with a filmmaking duo, fresh off, a pair of sold out screenings, and the Audience Choice Award where it premiered at the Bend Film Festival here in Oregon. The film, Adapted. The creators, Paul Bikis and Josh Hancock. Their documentary follows three outdoor enthusiasts, Josh, Anna, and Danielle, who each navigate life after spinal cord injuries reclaiming the outdoors through creative adaptations and support from their communities. Today, you'll go behind the scenes and learn about the creative process, teamwork, and the emotional journey required to bring this, film seven years in the making, to fruition. All right, let's get into it. I'm Producer Didrik Johnck, and this is The No Barriers podcast.
Erik Weihenmayer: It's easy to talk about the successes, but what doesn't get talked about enough is the struggle. My name is Erik Weihenmayer. I've gotten the chance to ascend Mount Everest, to climb the tallest mountain in every continent, to kayak the Grand Canyon, and I happen to be blind. It's been a struggle to live what I call a no barriers life. To define it, to push the parameters of what it means. And part of the equation is diving into the learning process and trying to illuminate the universal elements that exist along the way. And that unexplored terrain between those dark places we find ourselves in and the summit exists. a map., that map that way forward is what we call no barriers.
Hey everyone, welcome to the No Barriers podcast. This is Erik Weihenmayer. And man, I have some awesome folks on today. One of 'em, I actually know. Josh, you and I go way back. we're gonna talk about, uh, your injury of course, but like pretty quickly after your injury, you came to one of our No Barriers events, and then I think soon after that.
You and I went kayaking in the Sea of Cortez. Yeah.
Josh Hancock: Remember all that? I said, it's hard to believe that, uh, I think it's been a little over 10 years now since we met and, uh, and probably eight, or seven or eight since we went sea kayaking.
Erik Weihenmayer: Aw, that was such a fun trip. Oh my gosh. That is the most beautiful place on earth.
Yeah. The Sea of Cortez. Yeah.
Josh Hancock: Swimming with the, uh, at that seal colony was one of my, one of my highlights. That was amazing. Yeah. and the frigate rookery was really cool.
Erik Weihenmayer: Darwin said it was, had the, some of the richest animal diversity, sea life diversity on the earth. So experiencing that with you was, was really incredible. And what was that like back in 15 or something that Yeah,
Josh Hancock: the summer of 2015 was the No Barriers Summit where we met. And then, it was January. I'm gonna guess 2018 that we went to API to Santo. Yeah. Cool. What do you remember about the summit? Oh, so many things. um, it was my first exposure to any kind of adaptive recreation.
There were at least half a dozen adaptive sports organizations there, and I, I didn't know that those existed until I went mm-hmm. I remember, mountain biking, in the, on the Park City trails. I remember going, uh, whitewater kayaking on the, the Weaver River. Nice. I remember having dinner with you and Sky.
Yeah. And a whole bunch of other interesting people. I remember Josh Blue doing an amazing standup comedy set. It was awesome. It was a really cool, it was foundational to my, my, my ability to sort of conceptualize what this life
would be like.
Erik Weihenmayer: Mm-hmm.
Yeah. Josh Blue. He was pretty funny. I remember he was kind of dirty.
I was, I was squirming a little bit, but he's a comedian with Cerebral Palsy and so he just talks about his life and he's hilarious. Yeah, he's fantastic. Yeah. I'm a big fan. Well you've come a long way since, we first met and, uh, you are one of the writers in this new film Adapted. That's really exciting.
You guys just premiered it this weekend in Bend, Oregon. Right. I'll get you involved too, Paul. How was the screening Paul?
Paul Bikis: The screening was amazing. Yeah. We, had two sold out shows. It was my first time seeing it in an actual theater on a big screen with proper audio and all the little details that we tried to emphasize throughout the creative process felt like they really came to life and it felt like it was really well received too, which was awesome.
Erik Weihenmayer: Isn't that the coolest thing though, when you guys make this film and you're just sitting in the studio and like sweating and B.O. and coffee breath and just like pulling your hair out? Like, does that work? And then you show it in front of an audience and you watch people's faces light up and they're, and cheering and maybe some tears and isn't that the most amazing thing to watch that process and see the end result?
Josh Hancock: it's, it is really emotional. During our premier Saturday night probably for the first two minutes of the film, I was just crying. Um, yeah. And,just feeling this beautiful overwhelm and release of sort of this tension that I've been holding in my heart for the last seven years of, of, we had this dream, we had this idea.
We didn't have much funding. We didn't have a lot of supporters outside of our core team. And, uh, I think we were, we were dreaming back in 2018 that we were gonna make a film that, that someday people would wanna watch. But I don't think that we believed or expected that we were gonna be able to premiere it at a film festival.
Erik Weihenmayer: Yeah. Making a little independent film like this is just such a labor of love. Right. It's kind of a miracle that you can conceive an idea like this and then make, not only is just, just, it's not just like a short film, like a 15 minute film, it's a feature length film that's really hard to achieve. Right,
Paul Bikis: Absolutely. And the
Erik Weihenmayer: fundraising and all that too. Right. Unbelievable.
Paul Bikis: Yeah, I had no idea what went into this. I was, uh, 24 years old when I connected with Josh, and we had, came up with this idea of making the film and I'd made a few, five minute, maybe one 10 minute film, uh, but mostly was a photographer and, you know, had this idea this was a really powerful story that I wanted to try to figure out how to tell. I didn't know anything about fundraising. I didn't know anything about all of the logistics of bringing something like this to life. And so, yeah, definitely a labor of love.
Erik Weihenmayer: What's your advice to other aspiring filmmakers?
Run for the hills and, and become an accountant or what?
Paul Bikis: Absolutely. Yeah. Don't do it. No, no. I'd say it's, you know, it's, it's a lot of work, but if you stick with it,it pays off. It's really, it's really meaningful and, uh, and gratifying for sure.
Erik Weihenmayer: Yeah. So, wait, you had just mentioned you guys met, was it just a random meeting?
Josh Hancock: So I, I got a grant from a guy named Hawkeye Johnson, who lives in Telluride.
Erik Weihenmayer: Yeah, he's in the film.
Josh Hancock: Yeah, he is. Yeah. So he's featured in the film. I got a grant from him to help me buy my sit ski and probably a year later, I got a phone call from this guy named Paul. And he was like, Hey, Hawkeye gave him your phone number.
Paul Bikis: And, and I was, you know, I'd met Hawkeye and he'd introduced some of the people he'd given grants to and, and we thought that Josh had a really compelling story. And, I was like, Hey, would you be interested in doing this film project, telling your story about, you know, how you've been able to adapt and get back outdoors? And he was like, really excited
Erik Weihenmayer: about it.
That is awesome. so Josh, you're not only one of the writers and one of the filmmakers, but you're also a star in the film, right? It features you as a rafting person and, and, uh, as a boater, sorry, a rafting person. Did I just say that as a boater? I kayak, so I should know what I'm talking about when it comes to the river a little bit.
But anyway, so yeah, you're a boater and, uh, and you rowed, this Salmon River in the, in the film, right?
Josh Hancock: Yeah. We were, we did the lower salmon for the feature. Yeah. It's so interesting because when, when I was talking to Paul the first time, I remember saying like, you know, I don't, I don't want a whole movie about me. Like that doesn't, that feels, you know, right kind of weird. But I also. Felt like that type of content in media would've been so helpful to me when I was in recovery. Yeah. And so I sort of felt like there was a gap that, that needed to be filled, for the world and for other people who are going through this sort of thing. So we started, we started talking about what the film could look like and Paul and I started kicking around the idea of, well, what if we have multiple protagonists?
And he was like, I don't know. It's like that, that's not really the structure of a documentary. Normally there're about one person and there's some supporting characters, but, but we, we were like working it and working it and working it. And I think some of this is where the writing teamwork started.
And we sort of conceptualized, well, Danielle and Anna and I are all rock climbers and we all broke our backs in rock climbing accidents. And we all have spinal cord injuries and we all still love doing things in the outdoors. So if you look at it that way, there's a single narrative arc. There's only one story being told.
Right. But you're getting three different perspectives on that story. And so I can speak for Anna and Danielle and they can speak for me, and they can speak for each other. And if we edit it and structure it just right, maybe it'll all fit into 87 minutes.
Erik Weihenmayer: Yeah. I love that piece of it, how it kind of just spiral spirals around from story to story and kind of each story builds on itself.
And then it's almost like, almost like a conversation between, you know, the, the three characters, as they go through their own process. Right, exactly. Yeah, that's exactly right. Yeah. Tell us about Danielle and Anna. Paul, why don't you tell us?
Paul Bikis: Yeah. So the way it all started is, uh, I met Hawkeye at the Telluride Bluegrass Festival in 2018.
He sounds like a good old hippie.
He's a good old hippie, you know. Kind of looks like a pirate. He's got this, long, silky white hair, a big beard, some scraggly teeth. And he was just so excited. And he's like, you know, I do these long distance hikes to raise money for, people with disabilities.
I help, provide grants to get them the equipment they need to access the outdoors. And he had done the triple crown of long distance through hikes twice. So that's the Appalachian Trail, the Continental Divide, and the Pacific Crest Trail. And he was pioneering a new trail around the San Juan volcanic cluster.
It was gonna be about 400 miles. And his first stop was coming through Durango, which is where I was living at the time. And so I was fresh outta college and I thought, man, this sounds so cool. I'd love to make a short film on what you're doing. And you know, can I come out on the trail with you for a few days and do some filming?
And he was like, absolutely, that sounds awesome. So we get out on the trail and as we're there hiking, just the two of us and I'm filming, he starts telling me about some of the athletes who he'd provided grants for. And among the first stories were Josh, Anna, and Danielle. And I was just really taken by hearing what sort of things they were doing and how they were adapting and overcoming these obstacles and how important the outdoors were to them.
Even though they couldn't walk, they were finding ways to access these places that felt really foundational in my life and. So after our hike, I was like, Hey, could you connect me with some of these people? I'd like to bring them into this story. And as I got to talking with Josh, we realized this isn't gonna be a short film.
This is potentially gonna be a, a feature length film, and went from there. But that's how it all started.
Erik Weihenmayer: And as it turns out, each of these three characters have these big adventures, right, Josh? With boating on the Lower Salmon and then, uh, Anna hiking,and getting up Mount Baker and Danielle, hand cycling the White Rim Trail, right.
So that each of them. Did they have these like big adventures in mind? Was it, because it seems like you got very lucky with the, the timing of these three cool adventures.
Paul Bikis: Yeah, so, so Anna had just finished her Hood climb. She'd become the first female paraplegic to climb Mount Hood, and she was getting a lot of press and buzz around this.
And I was like, Hey, do you have anything else planned? And she's like, well actually, we've been thinking about doing Mount Baker next year. And so first I asked her if it'd be okay if I followed her adventure. And she's like, absolutely. So that was kind of the first adventure that came to be. And then Josh and I were talking about it and I was like, you know, do all three of you guys want to climb Mount Baker together?
And he's like, I don't think that's really in the cards for me, but you know, I've been dreaming of doing this rafting trip that might be a cool thing to incorporate in the film. And so that's how the rafting trip came to be. And then I asked Danielle, Hey, we're gonna be doing these, you know, mountain climb and rafting adventure.
Do you have anything that you've really been wanting to do that we might be able to incorporate into this film project? And she actually was like, I've been dreaming of doing the White Rim Trail on a hand cycle, which is a hundred
Erik Weihenmayer: miles, really rough, rugged road. Yeah. Outside of, yeah,
Josh Hancock: Through the desert near Moab.
Paul Bikis: Yeah, through the heart of Canyon Land's National Park. And she's like, I wanted to do this since before my injury, but haven't been able to make it happen. And so they just really kind of came together serendipitously and, you know, ended up being unique ways that different people with spinal cord injuries can access the outdoors.
They're, you know, very different landscapes, different sports. So that all just kind of came together pretty organically.
Erik Weihenmayer: Hey everybody, this is Erik and I want to take a little break from our interview to tell you about No Barriers. Obviously, we're interviewing these amazing No Barriers pioneers, but behind this podcast is an organization called No Barriers, predicated on the idea that what's within us is stronger than what's in our way. Our mission at No Barriers is to help people with disabilities, to break through barriers, to tap into the light of the human spirit, and to reclaim their lives, sometimes to reclaim their potential in the business of shifting mindsets. And it's proud work and I hope you'll get involved. Learn more about us. Check out our newsletter. No Barriers usa.org. No Barriers podcast.com.
I. Hey, Josh. I wanna talk about your boating
Yeah.
And, and the process there. But before I do, I gotta, uh, digress and say, forget boating. Like you did a rehearsed dance with your girlfriend on stage in front of an audience.
Josh Hancock: Oh man. You heard about that?
Erik Weihenmayer: Oh yeah. I got my sources buddy.
Josh Hancock: Oh man. Yeah. I, uh, this was,
Erik Weihenmayer: that sounds scarier than boating.
Josh Hancock: It is, yeah. not only was it a rehearsed dance? It was, it was a burlesque performance. Oh, wow. And they were throwing dollar bills at us. And do we have video of this close? We're flying this up on social, uh, not on social media, but there is video that Yeah, I can show you over a beer.
Erik Weihenmayer: How come that have it in film? That's awesome. So, yeah, tell me about your boating. How did you get into boating? Were you a boater before your injury or was that something that you did, started, as a para?
Josh Hancock: I did a little bit of boating before my injury, but not much. It was sort of, uh, we had a 4th of July tradition of, of doing an overnight trip on the Deschutes that started sometime around 2010.
And so a bunch of my buddies in Seattle and I would go down there and, and just do that little trip. And, you know, I also liked to fish. Uh, I used to do a lot of Steelhead fishing, and so we would row a small rafts to do that, but there wasn't white water, you know, we were just kind of just going there for the fish.
yeah, so, so I had some knowledge of it, but it wasn't, it wasn't the passion that it became after my injury.
Erik Weihenmayer: And how did, and tell me about, you know, the, the films Adapted, which I know is like, your mindset, your life, but also Adapted is very specific to the adaptations that you make to be able to get into the outdoors again.
So you have, it looks like some adaptive boating, rig, right? Like your seat has to be a little different. Tell me about that.
Josh Hancock: Yeah, so first of all, I'll just say that, Eric Thompson, who's a, a paraplegic whitewater rafter, yeah. He was, he's a, he was a Gauley guide for those of you who know about the Gauley River.
Wow, that's a good, in West Virginia. Yeah. It's one of the, one of the biggest class five runs in North America that's actually commercially operated. And so ET was the person who gave me most of the ideas for my boat setup. And basically it's like a plastic, racing go-cart seat, like a five point harness racing seat, and you strap that on top of a dry box and then use a Velcro belt attached to some cam straps to have a nice.
Tight cinch, um,
Around you, you mean? Right? Yeah. Yeah. And what's nice about the, the go-kart seat is it has these holes in the side of it. So you get a nice low lap belt, and so it holds your hips real tight, and you sit on top of one of the purple cushions that can get wet and still function just fine.
So you got the purple cushion for the skin protection. You got the race car seat to hold the belt and give you lots of back support. So when you're pushing the oars, you're, you're really grounded and connected to the boat.
Erik Weihenmayer: Yeah. And for a lot of people don't know Right. You're backwards. Right. you're looking up river, right?
Yes. Well, I'm, so, I'm facing, I'm facing down river and I'm Oh, you're facing down river. Okay, got it. Yeah, I'm facing down river and, but I, and I'm pushing, got it. Okay. Instead of pulling. So most people pull I see. To slow their boat down, but I'm pushing and always, always kind of accelerating,which is harder.
Josh Hancock: It definitely changes a lot of things. There's certain moves, uh, like on the Rogue River, there's a classic rapid called Blossom Bar, and everybody, everybody faces downstream and rows backwards to sort of make this tricky move to, to avoid a particularly dangerous feature. And so I have to do that facing upstream.
So then I, my whole boat is going upstream and I'm looking over my shoulder and trying to time this move. So it's, it's a little different, but, but it works.
Erik Weihenmayer: Now what happens if you fly out of the boat, and you're swimming? I remember you touched on this in the film, that like, because you don't have control of your feet, like they can get impinged, right?
They can get, stuck in a rock or something like that. So yeah, I mean,
you know, there's, so what happens
if you got flung out of the boat? and that's, would you still be in the same seat? And is it like a flotation seat.
Josh Hancock: No, I, so you, you pull the Velcro belt when the boat flips and try and get as far away from the boat as you can so you don't get Got it.
You know, like one of my biggest fears really is like getting caught in like lines on the boat or like a foot getting stuck in a cam strap or something. Totally. So I want to get as far away from the boat as I can. and then swim in Whitewater has pretty similar risks no matter what your body's like.
Um, you know, you wanna swim over away from trees that are in the water and you wanna swim away from the biggest hydraulics. But I just kind of, I get on my back and I kind of do like a gentle backstroke, like an elementary backstroke. Right. And that slows me down a little and floats my feet up in front of me.
Got it. And after that, you're just kind of angling yourself 'cause you want to go right. You, you kind of point yourself in that direction and just start swimming backwards. You sound like you've done this before. I've done it a lot.
Erik Weihenmayer: And Paul. Changing t here. Tell me like, on a broader sense, if a film is like, about show something like, or, or teach something, or, you know, just reveal some truth, some insights, like why did you make the film?
What were you hoping to learn? or, and maybe that's a question for both of you, right? What were you hoping that you would learn through studying these three experiences and the overall process of trying to move forward in our lives in different ways?
Paul Bikis: Yeah, yeah. I mean. It's kind of funny. You, you start a project going one direction and over the course of many years and cuts, it goes a lot of different directions and it doesn't always end where you thought it was going to.
Right. When I set out I was at home taking care of my mom and I wanted to make a film about the importance of the outdoors and how healing it can be to be out in nature and challenging yourself and doing these things. And I thought that, you know, the idea of telling these three stories of people with paraplegia, was a really compelling way to do that.
You know, that they're overcoming so many obstacles to get to these wild spaces that it must be so important to our, you know, nature as humans. But along the way, I learned so many things about spinal cord injuries and, you know, it became this sort of journey through trauma and healing and. really trying to capture a feel rather than just trying to say what it was like. Some of the first versions we kept trying to explain what it was like to, go through this life changing injury. And then we kind of pulled back and we were like, how can we create that feel more mm-hmm. In the film? And I think that, served it quite a bit better in the end result.
Erik Weihenmayer: Yeah. And you touched upon your backstory. Your mom had some kind of like dementia, right? And so, uh, you were her caregiver and you got her out biking and even skiing and things like that, right? So that's, but, and I think you realize that, you know, she couldn't do that without some support. So there was another connection there, I think, right?
Paul Bikis: Yeah. Yeah. There's like all these little layers that, you know, I learned throughout the process that some, you know, weaved their way into the film that, you know, we all needed support. My mom needed support. She could do these things outside, but not without help. And, you know, Josh and Anna and Danielle throughout the film, you see different ways that community comes together and supports them to accomplish these big adventures and Yeah.
You know, the power of community, that it's, it's not just being outdoors, that is healing, it's surrounding yourself with people and love and support that also aids in that healing that I didn't realize when I set out that was such a big part of it. And I think that was also a big part of it with my mom.
It wasn't just her going biking, it's her getting to go biking with me.
Josh Hancock: Yeah.
Erik Weihenmayer: And that was a unifying part of the story for sure. Each of the three folks had these amazing teams around them. Uh, Josh, what, what were you gonna say about this? what you're hoping to learn?
Josh Hancock: I'm, i'm just getting some chills right now thinking about what Paul just shared.
Yeah, for sure. community, I'll just say before I, before I answer your question, community is such a huge part of it. and for everybody listening out there, I want to express my gratitude to the people who came to visit me when I was in the hospital and the people who rallied around me the first year after my injury, helping me get back outside again and, and all the volunteers and adaptive sports organizations.
And it just goes on and on and on.
Yeah. We're fortunate in that way, aren't we?
We are. I think it's one of the most beautiful things about our culture today is that there's this celebration of what bodies can do and also the giving and taking, you know, volunteers and adaptive sports are getting connection and meaning and the people that are doing the activities are getting them to, it's, it's a generative process. It's not a zero sum game. And I think that's really cool and I think that I want more people to know about that. Yeah.
Paul Bikis: yeah.
Josh Hancock: and that kind of gets to, your question, which is, what did I want to communicate?
And there was so much,I wanted to create some type of media that people who are, who have recently experienced debilitating injuries, life changes, who have been living with them for 20 years and not enjoying their life the way that they could. yeah, I wanted to provide some examples and that's one of the reasons it was so important that we have multiple people in the film.
You know, different genders, different ages, different activities, to give people as many ways to sort of connect with the film and see themselves represented in the film as possible. And so part of it was, here's a way to go through something hard and to continue living in a way that that is meaningful.
I wanted to educate the public about spinal cord injury and how diverse it is. So all of us have different levels of function and ability. Anna can walk with braces and, and arm crutches. And when people see her, they have no idea what's going on. And so I wanted people to learn about spinal cord injury.
I wanted to be able to talk about incontinence and, you know, the range of, of nerve pain, the, the range of impacts that it has on your life, and I wanted to share about these communities. Yeah, that, that was just a few of the things.
Erik Weihenmayer: Yeah, really good. And, you just mentioned Anna, who is, would you call her, is she an incomplete para?
Is that what the way you say it? Because she can walk? Yeah. Yeah.
Josh Hancock: So her and I actually have very similar levels of injury. I'm T 11 and T 12. Yeah. And she's T 12, which is pretty low, right? Yeah, it's pretty low. She's T 12, but she's incomplete, Right. I can't use anything basically below or outside my hips, but her quads and hip flexors all work pretty well.
And so it, uh, yeah. It's just these subtle differences in an injury.
Erik Weihenmayer: Yeah. And then for you, you have some ab muscles, which is incredibly helpful for stability.
Josh Hancock: Yeah. Um, they're definitely useful.
Erik Weihenmayer: Yeah, that's for sure. Because I have a friend who just got hurt and he is a pretty high up, and when he hand cycles, I mean, he's.
He's getting better and better, but he's constantly tipping over, you know, because he has no, he has no the stability that some people might have. So, Anna, I think it's amazing. Like, I was listening to the film, obviously I wasn't watching it, but the steep parts of Mount Baker, she was walking with her crutches.
I was just thinking, I, all your stories are amazing. But that one, I was just like, how the heck does she have the leg strength to walk up a steep, like thousand foot, you know, section of the mountain where you're kicking steps. I, I'm imagining she's wearing crayons, kicking steps.
Paul Bikis: Yeah.
Erik Weihenmayer: I mean that's like incredibly physical.
I was just really blown away.
Paul Bikis: Yeah. And, and one of the things that, that she'll say is that the steep sections are actually easy for her, easier for her when she can get down on all fours and kind of crawl. Because one of the hardest things for her is finding her balance because she only has a little bit of hip flexors and quads.
She describes it as almost like walking on stilts. So she's constantly trying to like, swing her legs and find balance on these very uneven surfaces. And so once she can kind of crawl that, really helps her move actually quicker. But, you know, those, those changes in terrain are the, are the slow and difficult parts.
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Erik Weihenmayer: You know, I've been a, an adaptive athlete, I guess you'd call it for many years. And, there was some article that came out about one of my climb and a blind lady, was quoted in the newspaper saying, I have trouble relating to this guy because I'm a blind woman, but I'm just a mom and I need to find childcare and I need to figure out how to get on the bus and pay, you know, make a living to support my family and cook dinner and get to the grocery store.
Like, this guy's, climbing Everest. And she's like, that's a little bit outside of my like, uh, wheelhouse, I guess. And I thought that was actually a really, really good and honest statement. And one of the things I liked about this film is that you guys touched on some of the, some of the non mountain stuff, you know, some of the non heroic stuff, which is like the, you know, just, um, going to the bathroom I remember, one of you mentioned. Pressure sores if you're a paraplegic. Was that a conscious effort just to make sure you guys like touched on, quote unquote, real life.
Paul Bikis: Absolutely. Basically from the beginning in our early conversations, we didn't want it to just be this kind of heroic chest beating look at us doing these grand adventure films.
We wanted it to be, you know, more real and authentic of what life is like at home as well as, you know, on these trips. How are they adapting to be able to do these adventures, but also how are they adapting at home to just function in this new body? And Josh can speak more to that.
Josh Hancock: Yeah. I'll echo what Paul said., I, I wish if there's something we could have put more of, that's what I would've put more of. I mean, it's so hard at the cutting room floor to make these decisions. Right. But you know, we didn't really want the film to feel heroic. I think we wanted it to feel like, um,
Paul Bikis: a little bit heroic.
Erik Weihenmayer: Yeah. You gotta have something heroes, a little bit heroic. You gotta have a little hero. Few heroes in there.
Josh Hancock: Yeah. But it's like. Wanted it to feel like people doing what they loved, regardless of whether it was big to the world. I, I got the privilege of riding the White Rim Trail this spring and it was so beautiful and awesome and you know.
I had probably five or 10 people pass me who were doing it in a day. Able-bodied people who were doing it unsupported in a day. So like is it, is it heroic for Danielle to do it with vehicle support in two nights? Well, I don't know. I mean, it's meaningful to her's, meaningful to these audiences, I think because it's meaningful to her.
And that's where it's like, this is a human story. It's not about like doing heroic things. It's about doing things that you love, things that are meaningful to you. And so we provide three examples of what that can look like. And I hope that people kind of realize and extend the message to say like, what do I want to do? And what's accessible to me? That that has meaning?
Erik Weihenmayer: Yeah. I really love that context that you just put it in. Uh, one of the things, uh, about Danielle that I thought was kind of cool that you touched on, which was like a, just a little piece of the film was that I, I believe Danielle is a caregiver to her mom, right.
Who has cancer. So that's pretty wild. Her injury was, she fell from 300 feet. I, it's, um, I'm boggled a little bit how she's even alive, first of all. But her injuries must have been just unbelievably severe. And then now she's a caregiver to her mom getting her to the grocery store and stuff like that.
That's a really cool piece of the film. Paul, you wanna touch on that?
Paul Bikis: Yeah. Yeah. First of all, her injury and survival absolutely captivated me, when I heard the story. I had, uh, actually read a writeup that her trauma surgeon put into one of the medical journals, that they did after her fall, kind of examining, how she survived because they did a study with over a hundred people who had taken a fall from a hundred feet with a 100% mortality rate.
Yeah. So she fell three times that and somehow survived. And you're just like, how is this possible? And that's why I ended up interviewing him in the film because I was like, I want to hear more about this. Yeah. I thought that was a really interesting part of her story. And then, going into the project, I didn't know about her mom and that we kind of had that same sort of thing going on.
And, um, we weren't sure in the first couple cuts. If that was going to make it into the final film, I wasn't sure if my story was gonna make it into the final film. Initially was a little uncomfortable, but then as we sort of massaged and massaged, we realized like, this is a really important and compelling part of it all.
You know, that not only is she going out and doing these things that she loved, but like, you know, she's like, I need to do this to find myself again. Like, it was important for her to go out and take care of herself so that she could come back and be, you know, the best caregiver that she could.
Erik Weihenmayer: Yeah, because it's so easy as, you know, so personally for caregivers to lose themselves, right?
Paul Bikis: Yeah, yeah. You get, you get lost in it and you feel guilty when you have to, leave to go and do something for yourself. You feel like you need to be there all the time for them, and that, that's really important. And our, our moms actually ended up passing just a few months apart back in 2020.
And, it's crazy story, but I mean, we've just become so tight through this film and through our journeys of being caregivers and, you know, going through that process of grief together and, you know, sitting in the film yesterday watching it, I was just bawling my eyes out at both, her mom's scenes.
Like, it just gave me total chills. And I was like, man, I'm so glad that we filmed this. And I'm also so glad that it, it, you know, made its way into the final film. I think it helps reach a broader audience, 'cause maybe you don't have a disability, maybe you don't have a spinal cord injury, but maybe you're a caregiver, maybe you know somebody who's a caregiver and this can help, you know, resonate with them in their journey.
Erik Weihenmayer: Yeah. Uh, Josh, speaking of like grief and trauma. Uh, maybe this is a hard question, but like, you know, just listening to Danielle's story of falling in your fall while you were ice climbing, and, uh, and Anna's fall. do you know, I, I'll tell you, like, I'm 57 years old and when I think about myself as a newly blinded person sitting at the cafeteria at a table by myself, just listening to the life go by and wanting to be part of the food fight so bad, and I, I like tear up still.
Like, I don't think that'll ever change in my entire till I die. You know? That moment I, you know, I just, I just can't get through it without crying. Do, what's your grief process like, first of all, like, does that traumatize you to relive these stories at all? Or how does it make you feel?
Josh Hancock: I don't think it's re-traumatizing. I mean, well. A little bit. I mean, we did a re, we did a, like a recreation scene. Um, yeah, I saw that. I heard that I guess. And so I was, you know, I was sort of, trying to put myself back in that space and like, some of the things going through my head and, and sort of like breathing hard and stuff like that.
And it was amazing how, how close to the surface that fear was still, and how I was like, kind of rattled after we did that. but in general, people wanna know why, a, you know, young-ish healthy person is in a wheelchair and, and people ask all the time. So the stories, get told a lot.
But I think in terms of the, the grief, it's, um, to me it's like you gotta, you can't run from it. Like you access that memory over and over again, and every time you do I suspect what it sort of feels like or looks like is you are, you know, sitting next to that version of yourself and kind of putting your hand on his back. A thousand percent.
Yeah. And like when I was in the hospital, like, you just, you like, fuck, I can't move my legs. And you cry and you have to let yourself experience that. You have to let yourself, miss the things that are gone and feel the pain. And, and when it comes up later, do it again. And I think the more you do that, it's, it's like a muscle gets stronger, you get more confident that you're going to experience that feeling and get back to a place of, of feeling whole again.
And it also allows you to to be vulnerable. And when you're vulnerable, you can experience whatever it is that's happening. and that includes all the joyous things in life too. Yeah.
Erik Weihenmayer: Yeah. It's like you can't build a crust around yourself and just protect yourself from it all. Right. You have to, you have to rip that crust off and be vulnerable and experience it, honestly.
Right. So that then you can experience the highs too. Because without the lows, you can't have the highs. Yeah. My friend, um, Sebastian Carrasco, he is from Ecuador. He's this para, he is a badass. He climbs volcanoes, with the help of his team and paraglide off the summit. , But, uh, but he got hurt in a belay accident.
He was like setting up a high ropes course for this corporate group, and he thought he was on belay and he wasn't. He fell and broke his neck and, he talked a lot about how hard it was to forgive himself, you know, because this, like this one moment where you make a little mistake or you, in your case, maybe your partner makes a mistake.
Now just tell me to shut up if this is too deep. But like how do you move through that process of forgiveness, like forgiving yourself and forgiving your teammate? I'll tell you, like I've been working on myself so much in the second half of my life, and I still, you know, have trouble sometimes letting go.
So it, you know, so I'm asking not only for the audience, but for my behalf.
Josh Hancock: Well, you know, so none of this is off limits and this, this is really important stuff. I'm glad you're asking about it. My, my climbing partner, tied a knot, uh, at, at the belay station. That wasn't the best knot, for the application and, um.
And it's unfortunate what happened. One of the things that helped me get closer was thinking about, the type of, the mistake that he made and then thinking about other times in my life that I've made mistakes that could have killed people and didn't have those consequences like one time, right.
You get lucky so often. Yeah. One time I was driving to Stevens Pass and it's a windy two-lane road going up the mountain and I dropped a donut and uh, reached down to pick up the donut. And when I, when I came back up to the wheel, I was halfway over the double yellow line and I've read numerous news stories about that happening and there being head on collision and everybody in the car is dying, And I was like, oh my God.
Like I've, I have done the things that could precipitate these horrible outcomes and I can think of multiple examples and the bad thing didn't happen. But this time it did. and that doesn't make my climbing partner any worse than, than I am just because the bad thing happened this time. the like, unlikely consequence manifested itself.
So it was sort of like seeing the humanity in the situation, seeing the human in him, seeing the human in me, like I've done this too. It just didn't work out that way. I got lucky. and the other piece was, he, he continued to show up for me, come into the hospital and, and supporting me and, and when I got out of the hospital, we would meet up for drinks,every couple weeks or month or so.
And I remember talking to him one time in particular, this metaphor came into my head outta nowhere and I was like, Hey bud, you know, this event is going to connect us the rest of our lives and there's nothing we can do about that. And it's sort of like we're both holding a knife that's got no handle.
Like we're both just holding the blade. Yeah. And if I tug on my end, it's gonna cut both of us. And if you tug on your end, it's gonna cut both of us too. And all we can really do is to try and hold each other as gently as we can in this life.
Erik Weihenmayer: Did you just come up with that knife blade analogy?
Because that is stunning. That's a real, I mean like, it really makes so much sense.
Josh Hancock: It just floated into my head in the moment and it's always felt true.
Erik Weihenmayer: Yeah. Wow. Yeah. So it's a symbiotic relationship.
Josh Hancock: Yeah. Yeah. We're connected, right?
Erik Weihenmayer: Yeah. You are connected.
Josh Hancock: It hurts both of us, you know?
Erik Weihenmayer: Yeah. Yeah. So it's in best of, you're both interests to, to be able to move forward and forgive and, and yeah.
And, and kind of live fully in this way. Absolutely. Another piece that's, I guess is like a little bit connected to that is there's a one one point in the film, where Danielle says, um, you know, to do these things, you have to give up a little bit of ego, otherwise you kind of, you know, you're just not gonna be able to do the things you want to do as a disabled person.
And I came to that realization, as a young guy, like, okay, I can push my own independence as much as I can, but I'm not gonna climb Everest or kayak the Grand Canyon. if I'm Mr. Machismo and I'm just gonna, I I wanna do the whole thing myself. I need a support team, right? I need a team around me that I can trust.
Right. So, and then you, I think mentioned this idea that like, when you're boating, you, you have to be carried up the beach, to your chair. You know, you wanna like unload the raft and everything, and you have to be able to learn as a disabled person to step up in a different way. To support, your friendships.
I think that's really something that every disabled person struggles with, right? Like, how do you show up in a new way, and accept that help, but also be able to like, give help, but maybe not in the traditional way, I guess.
Josh Hancock: Yeah, it's wild. It's really important and it's, it's a moving target because it's different with every person and every situation.
I think some of it for me feels like, you know, I think that some of my life experiences have made it clear to me that, for example, like ,happy's happy, if you are happy in a given moment, like you are doing it right and. If you can't be happier than happy, like there's just, you kind of get to that place where you're, you like what you're doing, and when you're there, you have gratitude.
And so when you're with other people and you're trying to drive to the mountain and you're all stuck in traffic, but the two of you are laughing because you're having a good conversation or you're, you're connecting heart to heart, um, that's happy. And so you don't get bummed about not being at the mountain.
And I think that my life has presented enough reminders and inconveniences that message is really clear to me. Life has taught me that lesson over and over again. And I, I like to believe that, that I can bring that to the people around me and that we are pretty much going to have a nice time as long as everybody is, trying to have a nice time.
Erik Weihenmayer: Paul, what do you think about that? Like, 'cause you're, I'm a presuming an able-bodied human being. Does that have application to folks without a disability? You know, like how we, we can lean on each other to go to pretty big places in life?
Paul Bikis: I was actually gonna speak to it from the context of my mom and what I saw with her.
Oh yeah, please do. Because, she was one of those people, all she wanted to do was help people. Yeah. She wanted to give, she wanted to be a mother, she wanted to take care of people. You know, she was an incredibly selfless person. And when she came down with this illness, posterior cortical atrophy.
And she slowly started decaying and needing more and more help it, it killed her inside. She was like, I hate being a burden. I don't want to be a burden on people. I want to help people. And yeah, and it was just really hard for her to, I think, swallow that, that part of herself and accept help in the ways that, that she needed it.
And I don't know if she ever got to the place that Josh and Anna and Danielle got to where they were, you know, able to ask for it because she was, you know, she struggled with that. And I think that's part of all of us. And I don't know how I would do in that situation of not being able to, grab the door or go do these things that are very, um.
You know, acts of service is like how you show up and support people so often and in this life as an able-bodied person. And when you're not able to do that, how do you show up for somebody and still give to them and feel like you are, you know, giving back in a meaningful way? I think it's, it's, it's not as straightforward, but you know, when I talk with Josh, I know that he's there and he's listening in the way that he gives me his full attention and he listens and it's not just like, how are you like, Hey, how's it going? It's like, how are you? I'm here showing up and I wanna listen to how you are as a person in this moment. And he's been able to find ways to, to do that that is like, makes me feel full even though he can't get the door for me or something like that.
And I think that, you know, that's, that's a beautiful thing. Mm-hmm.
Erik Weihenmayer: Yeah, it's a really interesting kind of thing to explore. I mean, like, I know I have my weird biases. I did this trip with this organization years and years ago across, we rode our bikes across Vietnam, and it was a bunch of disabled folks, from the Vietnam War, even a lot of Vietnam vets from both sides of the war, and a lot of people on hand cycles, blind deaf like amputees, but they had a bunch of able-bodied folks there that were the helpers.
And it became a weird, almost like a divide because the able-bodied folks were the helpers and the disabled people were the helpee. And I was trying to change that dynamic, right? Like it's not just like helpers. If you're able-bodied and disabled folks are the ones receiving help. It's gotta be like this interdependence, right?
It's gotta, it's gotta feel like you're each contributing in your own ways towards the process, towards each other, right? And so it's just more complicated than this binary way that I think it's easy to fall into that pattern. Does that make sense? Yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. It makes so much sense.
Paul Bikis: But to that, to that point, I mean, I think that people don't always realize that, you know, when an able-bodied person volunteers to go and do these, you know, rides with people or to help people up a mountain or to go on these rafting trips, that it, it does something for them too.
They don't feel taxed. It is giving to them to be able to help. You know, you see these volunteers and these organizations all across the country and they just light up when they're able to share something that they love with somebody. And maybe it means they're on a hand cycle and you gotta push them over the rock that they can't get over on their own.
But, you know, that's, at least when I do that, I can't speak for everybody. Like, I feel like I'm helping, I'm doing something that's good and, maybe that's hard to accept or like realize, but like that is doing something for me too.
Yeah. Josh, how do you struggle with that?
Josh Hancock: Well, I, I just want to tell a, a quick story Yeah.
Or anecdote or, or observation about, about what it is to be human. I think that we've been doing this as humans for tens of thousands of years. Many human cultures are travelers and, elderly, sick, incapacitated people have been moving through rough terrain with able-bodied people for as long as we've been people.
And those people were being brought, you know, grandma has the knowledge, grandma has the stories. Grandma sings the songs. Grandma can't climb over the, the 10 foot diameter tree that's fallen in the jungle. We've been doing this moving together forever. I think that it's instinctual. I think that this give and take of physical and mental and emotional capacities is like part of what it is to be a human being and we're just kind of remembering it.
Erik Weihenmayer: I love that. Great.
Didrik Johnck: Great. Wow. No Barriers would like to thank Maison Hennessy, a partner since 2023 for supporting our projects and closely collaborating with us to promote diversity and inclusion amongst their employees. Fueled by team spirit and collaboration, Hennessy believes that its Rope team is its greatest strength and its greatest responsibility. This year, the world's leading cognac will celebrate 260 years of successes and challenges overcome through the strength of its employees, partners, and consumers across more than 160 countries. To mark this milestone, Hennessy has commissioned an art piece from John Bramlett, a long time friend of No Barriers. Thank you Maison Hennessy for leaning into this no barrier's life.
Erik Weihenmayer: Josh, you also, I remember, at one point of the film, you reached the confluence of these two rivers. It's where two rivers come in and merge together, I believe, right? Yep. And obviously there's a metaphor there, right? Because you're not just doing these adventures, right, to like escape from life, right?
You're, there's a sense of wanting to integrate your life together, right? Yeah. To make the pieces of the, of your life work together. Wow. And so like the pieces are there and place in your learning from the whole thing, and you're becoming one integrated, purposeful human being. Right.
Josh Hancock: I love the way you connected those things. I don't think I even quite figured that out till just now
Erik Weihenmayer: Here to help. Yeah. But there must have been a metaphor in the confluence idea, right?
Josh Hancock: Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I mean, it's just sort of like, um. Yeah, it's like a joining or a meeting of experiences and memories and, you know, is, is it the people on the trip who have become a group?
You know, you bring, we had 20 people on that trip from probably 10 different states. Some of them knew each other, a lot of them didn't. I knew all of 'em, but that was probably the only connecting thing. So there's like, this group became, one group became known to each other. And they came from all these different places in my life.
My, when I'm being right before I do the rapid and I'm like looking at my phone getting some beta about the rapid. That guy John was my nurse in the ICU and a couple scenes later, his wife is like, go big or go home, you know? And it's like really cute and fun, but like, yeah, that was my nurse, you know? And like my first ski instructors for sit skiing were there and.
One of my friends that I met or that I got to visit right after my No Barriers Summit, and Jackson was there and she, like, she connected me to so many people in Jackson when I was starting to to imagine or starting to experience what kind of adaptive recreation might be possible in my life. So I think for me it was like all these stories and communities that have supported me, sort of like all coming into this one thing.
And oh, by the way, we get to sign, kind of like try and capture that feeling a little bit with these cameras and, and microphones.
Erik Weihenmayer: Hmm. Yeah. Now once you guys summit a mountain or finish a river or complete the White Rim Trail. like, it's not like you stand on the summit or you finish that river and or like, my life's changed forever, right?
Like, I know this personally as an adventurer, right? Like at the end of the road, at the finish line, it's not like there's just this magical thing that happens and you're like, I'm healed forever. Right? So the story continues, obviously. Right? So, Danielle, I heard she just had a baby. That should be your next documentary.
Paul Bikis: Oh, I know, right? It's incredible,
Erik Weihenmayer: right? So like, life continues, right? So, so Paul, what insights do you have there in terms of like these folks after the mountain, once they're down from the mountain?
Paul Bikis: Y that's tricky. I mean, I can't necessarily speak for what's next in life for them. part of me wishes that we just kept filming the documentary after the adventures because, you know, we were able to, we were able to sneak a little bit of the baby into the, into the credits, but you're like, wow, so much has happened since we finished these grand adventures.
And I think it's important to us to have those things that we look forward to, that, that are big. It's not just going up to the ski resort for a weekend, but having something in life that takes planning and effort and people that feels like something that is bigger than what you can do on your own.
And. And doing those things, I think gives a lot, it gives a lot to me. I think as an adventurer, it probably gives a lot to you. I know, you know, Josh, Anna and Danielle would say the same thing that, you know, having those kinds of trips and experiences in life is it gives us meaning. And after a big summit, lots of people are like, well, what's gonna be the next summit?
Yeah. Okay, Anna, what mountain are you gonna climb? Or, Josh, what river are you gonna do next? Or, Danielle, she went on to do several different World Cup adventures on her hand cycle, you know, competing with the challenged athletes, you know, women's hand cycle team, and now Anna's going to the Paralympics.
And, there's, it doesn't stop. It's just what's the next big adventure?
Erik Weihenmayer: And you guys are all young and, and excitable still. You know what I mean? But uh, you know, like I've thought about it in terms of like, I, once I come down from the mountain, I just can't have these like, highs on the mountain and then just lows when I'm in my regular life.
Like, I, I want to grow emotionally and spiritually and connect with people when I'm sitting on the couch, you know, when I'm playing my guitar, when I'm just having a glass of wine with my partner, right? So for you, Josh, like what comes after the, the river?
Josh Hancock: Yeah. I mean, I, I find a lot of meaning in daily physical activity, meeting some friends after work to go for a mountain bike ride and catch up on life.
I find my work meaningful. Uh, and I, I find projects like this really meaningful. These last seven years have been such an incredible creative outlet for me collaborating with Paul, having these conversations, trying to imagine what this film could be. And I'd like to just kind of steal the platform for a second to talk about some things that I want to do in creative capacities next.
Yeah, let do it. I, um, Paul and I are kicking around the idea of adapted the series, um, doing sort of half hour long serialized episodes, about individuals with different physical and mental disabilities and giving them a platform to, to tell the world what they want to tell them about that experience.
So like, what is cerebral palsy? What is it like? Where should people go to learn more? Where should they donate money? What should they do when they're interacting with these people in public? What lights you up? What brings love into your life? And doing that for people with multiple sclerosis and doing it with people with Luke Gehrig's disease and doing it for people who have amputations and doing it for people with mental, incapacities or, or whatever
it is. You know, we could do a hundred episodes and I think the world would be better for it. And again, it's about representation. It's about telling human stories, and it's about, giving people who, who have these conditions an opportunity to see someone like them and hear a story that's about them.
And to hear a message of life and love and hope, Yeah. I love it. So we're looking for, people who wanna do that and we're looking for people who are, are willing and able to finance these episodes. I don't think that the sums of money are huge to be able to do this, and I do think that it's, it's a good use of, of resources for the world.
The other thing I'll just throw out there is I have an idea for an app like everybody. but my idea mm-hmm is, is to create an app that sort of facilitates volunteerism. I want it to sort of look like Zillow, but you create a post and you say, Hey, I need help mowing my lawn. It's gonna take two hours.
I have the equipment. And then other people can open up their app and see open requests and like click on it. And if they go over there and do it, they get like points and they get like 50 karma points and it builds their profile and it says like, this person's a pillar of their community. They volunteered this many hours.
And that's such a
Erik Weihenmayer: great idea.
Josh Hancock: It's like a obviously helping people. But b, it's taken this experience of my able-bodied friends going on adventures and seeing what they get out of it. There's a lot of people who are, who are lacking connection in their lives in our society today. And being able to go somewhere and show up and help with something is like one of the most fulfilling things that, that people can do.
So I, I have a lot of excitement when I think about.
Erik Weihenmayer: I love that idea. It's a give and take because you're, you're right. The people that volunteer will get a lot out of it too. So I have this friend who's part of the No Barriers community up in Leadville, and she has this, she's got cerebral palsy, she's got a Grit freedom chair, which she cranks with her arms, but it's nice for her to have somebody able-bodied near her just in case she like, you know, rolls into a ditch or something.
She never can find enough people. I'm like, there's gotta be like tons of people who walk every day and wouldn't mind just coming by and walk walking with you and being there for you. She struggles with finding it. So like that app would be tremendous. What a great idea, dude.
Josh Hancock: Thanks. Yeah. I mean, just another example. Yeah. I love to surf and when I go surfing places, there's a hundred other people there surfing and it's, it's hard and awkward to, to like impose on people the level that it would take. But if I was to say like, Hey, I wanna surf between like eight and noon on this day, would someone be willing to do that with me?
we're gonna go out together, like, you're gonna surf, you're gonna do your thing, but you're gonna come with an expectation of helping me and it's gonna be dope and we're probably gonna be friends afterwards.
Erik Weihenmayer: Very nice. Oh my gosh. Cool. And then Paul, what about the film? Are you, you entering into festivals and going on the circuit?
Paul Bikis: Yeah, absolutely. Uh, we've got a number of other festivals that we're still waiting to hear back from. We plan to. keep that ball rolling at least another year and then do more screenings and we'll have all the updates coming out at adaptedthefilm.com.
We send out a newsletter. It's not a spammy thing at all. It's me writing it when I have time and there's like, okay, we're gonna do a screening here. And so, you know, if people are curious where, when, how they can watch the film, that's probably the best place to find out. Uh, there's still a lot of unknowns because of the way film festivals work and you know, you kind of put your cards in and you see what hand you get dealt, but as things progress, that's where we'll be keeping our updates and also all the social channels at adaptedthefilm is a great place to kind of stay updated.
Erik Weihenmayer: All right, cool. Well people stay tuned and hopefully hit one of those festivals or one of those screenings. and we'll include all that in the show notes. So guys, so great. Thank you so much for this hour together. I'm so happy you guys brought these stories into the world.
It's really important and I just hope this film gets seen by millions and millions of people because, uh, they will walk away having grown and having, new, perspective on, on so many issues. So thank you.
Paul Bikis: Aw, thank you so much for having us, Erik. This has really been a pleasure.
Josh Hancock: Yeah, it's been awesome.
Great talking to you Erik. and also thank you for the decades of advocacy and work that you've done to, to support people with disabilities and including myself in a very personal way.
Erik Weihenmayer: Awesome dude. Yeah. Hopefully you're gonna get to hang out in person at some point. Look forward to it. I have a cool, project.
I'll tell you offline about it. Great. Some point. I love ideas. Okay, cool. Alright. Thank you guys so much. Thank you to everyone. No barriers to everyone. See you next time, or I hear you next time or smell you next time I guess
Didrik Johnck: The production team behind this podcast includes Producer Didrik Johnck. That's me, and audio engineer, Tyler Kottman. Special thanks to the Dan Ryan Band for our intro song guidance, and thanks to all of you for listening. If you enjoyed this show, please subscribe, share it, and hey, we'd be thrilled for a review.
Show notes can be found nobarrierspodcast.com. There's also a link there to shoot me an email with any suggestions or guest ideas for the show. Thanks so much and have a great day.
