Podcast Ep211 Andy Holzer
Didrik Johnck: Welcome, welcome to the No Barriers Podcast hosted by Erik Weihenmayer. You'll hear from him in a minute, but first in the spirit of this episode, and you'll know why once Erik starts this interview, a joke. Did you hear the one about the two blind climbers bumping into each other while summiting Mount Everest?
Guess you could say they really saw it through all the way to the top. Wah wah waa. Okay. Okay. I'll do better next time. But check this out. It's actually inspired by a true story of these same blind mountaineers meeting by chance, a thousand feet up a limestone rock face in the Italian Dolomites, Erik Weihemayer and Andy Holzer.
And they happen to be the first and second blind people to successfully reach the top of the highest mountain in the world. We've got them in the studio today where they swap stories about Everest attempts, overcoming naysayers, and the importance of pursuing dreams into the unknown. You'll hear how their connection goes far beyond any notion of competition, rooted instead in brotherhood and the drive to redefine what's possible and a side of humor to boot.
All right, let's do this. I'm Producer Didrik Johnck, and this is The No Barriers podcast.
Erik Weihenmayer: It's easy to talk about the successes, but what doesn't get talked about enough is the struggle. My name is Erik Weihenmayer. I've gotten the chance to ascend Mount Everest, to climb the tallest mountain in every continent, to kayak the Grand Canyon, and I happen to be blind. It's been a struggle to live what I call a no barriers life, to define it, to push the parameters of what it means.
And part of the equation is diving into the learning process and trying to illuminate the universal elements that exist along the way. And that unexplored terrain between those dark places we find ourselves in and the summit exists a map. That map, that way forward is what we call No Barriers.
Hey everyone, this is Erik Weihenmayer. Welcome to another No Barriers podcast. I am super excited. I always say that, but this one I'm super excited because I'm interviewing an old friend of mine, Andy Holzer. And so I always say like being a blind climber is sometimes it feels like being a Jamaican bobsledder.
There just aren't too many of us in the world. And Andy, you and I met in the most preposterous way. In, in a way I feel like it should be like in that museum, Ripley's, believe it or not, because nobody would believe this story. I'll start it out and, uh, I'm climbing in the Dolomite of Italy. Beautiful, uh, limestone rock face called the yellow edge, right Andy?
Andy Holzer: Uh, yes, it is the yellow edge on the south face of the treat, Laredo.
Erik Weihenmayer: That's right. And so I'm a thousand feet up this face and I hear these helicopters flying around behind me and I yell up to this Italian team that we're over to the left and I said. What's going on? Is there like a rescue or something?
And they said, no, the helicopters are filming the blind man. And I thought, there's no way they're filming the blind man, because nobody knows I'm here. We literally picked that route that morning because it happened to be in the sun and the temperature seemed right for that face, face. And so, uh, I was very confused.
And then my friend belays me up onto this ledge and he says, Erik, you are not gonna believe this. There is another blind guy on this ledge.
Andy Holzer: Erik, may I tell? Uh, and that was you. May I tell the people on the other Yeah. Perspective from the, the other side of the story?
Erik Weihenmayer: Yeah. Finish the story.
Andy Holzer: Yeah. They called me, uh, for a, a video project. A video, a film project for a television in Italy. And uh, we went to the start of the climb to the base of this phase, and we made interviews, and then another climbing team from Italy came in. And they said, Hey, what are you doing there? The camera man told them, uh, there is a blind man. He is, he wants to climb this very vertical rock rate. Very, very, very special. And then the, um, the, the, the Italian guy says, no, there is a big mistake. The blind man is already on the face. This is the wrong man. What do you have on the camera, uh, in front of your camera?
And the same guys met you maybe two hours later. You know what I mean? So nice.
I remember meeting you on the ledge.
I remember our first meeting because Martin, my friend, my climbing partner, said to me, you, you are five, six meters, to the left of me. Yeah. And he said to me, Andy be careful. There is a special guy, he have no reaction because I, I tried to show him with my fingers or with my hand that you are blind, but there is no reaction.
And, um, maybe he's drunken or something else. and then I said, it doesn't matter, I will climb to him. And then , I went this five meters to the left. I could hear your, your breathing. I could, uh, feel, uh, your radiation and then I don't know exactly. I, I give you my hand or I said hello. Yeah. What are you doing there?
I don't know. That was our meeting, I think on the beginning of the long ledge. Yes, I think so.
Erik Weihenmayer: But the funniest part was that you were making this documentary. And the documentary was like, look at Andy Holzer, this amazing climber climbed this huge face in the Dolomites. And then this other blind guy pops into your film like, Hey. And I remembered listening to the German documentary. It was like Andy Holzer and then Och Vine Meyer. Yeah, this is, yeah.
Yeah.
And now, okay, so what I also remember, and this is natural, so don't feel bad, but you, I think what I remember is that you thought like, wait, this blind guy is like purposely sabotaging my film, right?
Yes. And so at first I, yeah, you were like a little bit annoyed, like, whatcha doing?
Andy Holzer: Yes. Yes. Yeah. It's the same thing. You are a beautiful girl and they're making a movie with you and then it's coming and a, a more beautiful girl. And they say, oh, you did take the wrong there. Okay. What I remember too, you always asked me, Hey, what's about the, the descent?
What's about the descent? And I knew the helicopter is picking up us on the summit. Martin and myself and the camera team, but not you, of course. And you always asked what is about, um, repelling down or going down or descending? And then I asked, uh, my camera team and, uh, the TV station at the pilot, I know how Hansi was the pilot from the helicopter.
I said to them, Hey, no way. When Erik from U.S., he's blind, he do not know this route going down. I know this route. I will not fly down with the helicopter. I give this place for Erik. And then they said. No way. We take both of you down. And that, that's the story. What you did not know at this moment, you always asking, no, what's about the descending?
And then I said to you, Erik, I have a surprise for you.
Erik Weihenmayer: I remember that well. I remember us climbing together the second half of the route kind of side by side. And I was surprised 'cause we climbed. Kind of at the same pace and Yes, yes. Kind of same difficulty. And getting to the summit.
It was a tiny summit, yeah, very tiny. I don't know, like 10 dining room tables, Like not that big, you know? And
Andy Holzer: maximum, maximum,
Erik Weihenmayer: maximum, maybe five dining room tables.
Andy Holzer: The helicopter was not able to land there. No blood? No. No way.
Erik Weihenmayer: No, it, the struts, the helicopter flew up and kind of propped a little bit. It's like struts on the back, the side
Andy Holzer: with the curve on the left side, on the rock
Erik Weihenmayer: face. And it was tipping up and down in the wind.
Andy Holzer: Yes. like a boat. Like a boat in the river.
Erik Weihenmayer: Yeah. And we, we all piled in all that camera gear and everything. And then that helicopter dropped out of the sky. I've never felt anything like it.
My stomach like went through my nose. And as it dropped for about 30 seconds, I thought, are we like crashing? And then it leveled out and we landed in a cow pasture. And your wife, I think, handed me a beer. And, and I said, Andy, I'll climb with you anytime. You know, as long as you bring the helicopter. Of course.
Andy Holzer: Yeah. Yeah. That is a great story. And nobody believes me. It's now 20, 21 years ago. It was the third, the 14th of July, 2004. I never forget this day. we were, uh, committed with my team at six o'clock in the morning, uh, because in the afternoon, uh, was, uh, weather, weather coming, bad weather and, uh, thunderstorm and so on.
And so I said, Hey, make, make, go and go and go. And the, the team, they were very lazy. My team, my camera team, they, they got one more coffee, one more coffee, and, and I, I got nervous. I don't want to be there. And so we normally you will start this climb maybe, uh, seven o'clock in the morning normally.
Yeah. And we started at 10 o'clock. And if we would start at seven o'clock. Erik, we never would meet us. You know what I mean? We've never met. Never met. Yeah. That's a story. It's really,
Erik Weihenmayer: Well, I remember being very happy that you brought that helicopter because I did hear it was like a long descent with a lot of ropes and loose rock and everything, so, and it was late.
So yeah, you saved us and that, and I appreciate that and. The story gets even better because, uh, you called me up, and you said, Erik, I have another idea for us. And I wanna climb this rock face, just the two of us. And as I remember you said, only bleens, only blind people, no sighted people.
And that was your, that rock face that you had climbed before right near your home in Lyons. that's called the red tower.
Andy Holzer: Yes, that was, uh, that was the next story. There was the other story between with you her was between
Erik Weihenmayer: Oh yeah. Right. We climbed a rock face, you and me and Hugh Herr a double leg amputee.
so that was kind of an all gimp climb, as we say in English. Yes, yes. Actually nobody says that, but
Andy Holzer: yeah, of course. Uh, but we understand this, uh, this is the tower beside the yellow edge. Uh, on the right side there is a very famous, the cassine route. It's really serious. There is no piton, um, uh, bolt, the only old bolts from the fifties and, uh, Hugh or with, uh, no legs, and, uh, Erik and myself had no eyes.
Yeah, we did climb this and this.
Erik Weihenmayer: No legs, no eyes. That was the name of our team.
Andy Holzer: Yes. And that this story I'm using in my presentations as the example, uh, what is the frame condition? What is necessary to be, uh, successful? Is it really necessary to have your own legs to lead a route like this? Is it really necessary to have eyes in your face?
To make the security for a climbing team, is it really necessary or only necessary for the public? And then the result is it's only necessary for the other people, not for yourself. The expert of your life is inside you and not the public. Yeah. And we did it on the 15th of July, 2005. We climbed together with Hugh Herr, we'll never forget this very, very difficult rock.
Erik Weihenmayer: I remember falling on the crux pitch, but, and then we also had foggy kind of like weather that was about to turn into rain and we were trying to get off of that face too. Remember, I never forget your, but red tower is, let's move that, because that is where I think we made history you and me, because. I don't think any two blind people had ever climbed a route.
Andy Holzer: No. That was a year after together 2006 think we are, yeah, his in history we are the first. I, I don't if there's any seconds.
No. And we are talking about really blind guys. Yeah. You can show it uh, very nice with your balls in your face. I, I have my balls on other places.
Nice excuse. Excuse me.
Erik Weihenmayer: That's okay. This is an R rated podcast. All good?
Andy Holzer: Yeah, no problem at all. This is Andy Holzer, but, uh, I have, uh, 0% of, you and nothing like you. It's completely same and I know the route on the red tower since a few years before.
And I had the idea because I was climbing this route before with other climbers, but I was the leader. And then I said, if there is another climber behind me, or there is a professional climber from the us but he has his own balls in his, uh, face with no function. but the climbing system will run.
And that was my idea. There's no different for me if you are on the rope or another guy on the rope. It was an advantage because in the second pitch, you went into the leading position. You, you, yeah. I, I found it. you remember I found it. I lost it. I do remember fact. I found it again.
Erik Weihenmayer: Fact, you have a great memory. You have like a photographic memory. 'cause obviously I can tell you're remembering all these specific dates and so forth. And you and I did what we call in climbing, we swung leads. So you led a pitch and I led a pitch and then you led a pitch. And I remember getting up that second pitch and I couldn't find the piton to clip into, to protect myself.
And you said something like, Erik up up two feet or up a meter and left a meter, you might find a peon. And sure enough, I reached out and there was the piton and that was amazing. I wish I had that talent. Andy. Yeah. Yeah. This is my survive system.
Andy Holzer: Yeah. Yeah. And you remember on the, on the summit platform, the big crevasse what we have to cross.
Erik Weihenmayer: Well, even before that though, there was only way, one way to rappel down. And so we had to be able to get back to that one spot on the top of the tower to be able to rappel with our ropes. And so we trailed ropes. We tied ropes together, and we walked across the summit plateau and trailed those ropes. And I was calling you Hansel and you were calling me Gretel, because we were leaving breadcrumbs behind us so we could find our way down.
And then we got to that crevasse. It was a big, deep crevasse. And if I remember right, there was a boulder in the middle of it that was kind of lodged, that you could crawl or crab across, right.
Andy Holzer: Yeah. Yeah. Only one point on this crevasse is possible to cross the crevasse and der took a, a cam a cam out. Yeah. You remember?
Yeah. But for the listeners here on this, uh, channel, very important, how we made the communication very, very simple. Like two kids. I can remember in the big chimney, I think it was the pitch number three, I led the first number three, of course. Then number two, you was the leader. And then I was, um, approximately 10 meters, uh, 30, 30 feet, uh, above you. And then I, I said to Erik, when you look a little bit to the right and then, then you look down a little bit to the right, and then you said, Andy. I have to look to the, to the right.
So two blind guys are talking with, uh, with, together with, you have to look. And that means we are really looking, but we are looking in our eyes. You know, uh, you remember this, this, this point. Uh, you have to look a little bit. And then, uh, you, you, you was asking what you, you are sure, look, I should look.
I'm not able to look. And then I said, no, not to fall down, only to look down
Erik Weihenmayer: What an adventure.
Hey everybody, this is Erik and I want to take a little break from our interview to tell you about No Barriers. Obviously, we're interviewing these amazing No Barriers pioneers, but behind this podcast is an organization called No Barriers, predicated on the idea that what's within us is stronger than what's in our way.
Our mission at No Barriers is to help people with disabilities, to break through barriers, to tap into the light of the human spirit, and to reclaim their lives, sometimes to reclaim their potential. In the business of shifting mindsets and it's proud work and I hope you'll get involved. Learn more about us. Check out our newsletter. No Barriers usa.org, no barriers podcast.com.
Uh, I remember also with that crevasse, that, that big rock crevasse, um, we needed to find that boulder and we had different techniques, which was really interesting. I remember I brought a trekking pole up and so I was kind of feeling my way across the top with that trekking pole.
And you were walking and throwing rocks and using echo location, listening for the rock and the echo, to be able to find that, , crossing, that bridge. That was really cool to see, you know, two blind people and their different techniques that they developed. Yeah, but this is the, in different ways,
Andy Holzer: But this is, this is the, the project for the world. Lots of different guys wants the same summit, not only climbing in the whole world, and we have different practices, but which practice is the right practice? Erik or Andy practice? Doesn't matter you know. Everybody has his own way to go. And that's the point of this, of this story here. I
Erik Weihenmayer: think that's the beauty of the story, you know, our connections and the, and our differences.
Andy Holzer: Nothing is wrong.
Erik Weihenmayer: Nothing is wrong. And I remember how special it was when we got across that rock bridge and we got to the cross that, you know, some crazy person, I don't even know how they got it up there. Big Iron Cross. And you have such a good sense of space that I remember at that cross, uh, we were kind of arm in arm and you took my hand and you pointed my finger and you said, if we could see the red, we'd be looking down there at my house.
The red one. The red one. And I, and I laughed and I said, yeah, I think I see your wife waving at us from down below.
Andy Holzer: Yeah. Did you, you said the, the, the one with the red roof. You asked me. Yeah. The one with the red roof. Yeah. That's the Yes. I remember. So nice.
Erik Weihenmayer: And you know what's cool for me, Andy, is that I don't know, the typical scenario might be like two blind people. They're both climbers, they're both, highly motivated people. They meet and they're some kind of like competition or something. I never felt that one iota. I never felt that one bit. In fact, as I mentioned in the beginning of the podcast, you know, sometimes as a blind climber, you feel like you're alone.
And so meeting you and finding that cross together and pointing down at your house and having that wonderful experience together. I mean, I'd been to higher mountains and maybe some harder mountains, but I don't think I've ever had an experience like that where I felt so connected to another human being. We were like brothers that day. And, uh, yes, of course. And it, it's really special to know you
Andy Holzer: And Erik, what you don't know. Uh, people ask me the last 20, 25 years about this, uh, silly uh, com competition. And I, my answer is very short for these guys. Uh, it's not a reality of course. But I always say, okay, Erik is a nice guy. He's really a soul brother. because, uh, 2004, as we meet us, first time you were, very far in front of me in the business. You took Everest 2001 and, uh, I I start my career much later.
So you, you were in front a lot of, in, in the, in the viewing point of the public. Yes. Yeah. And they say to me, this is a big competition for you, Andy. And then I say to the people, no, we are not a competition. Erik said to me, Andy, this world are living. Eight. Oh. Uh, what we in English? Uh, billion. Yeah. Billion people four for you and four for me. We have enough.
Erik Weihenmayer: Yeah. There's plenty of, yeah. Yeah. There's plenty of territory for both of us in the world.
Andy Holzer: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. 4 billion of people. It's plenty enough. Also mountains are enough, you know? That's, that's an example for other guys. Uh, it's not necessary to be every time in competition. The biggest thing is, uh, to, to, to be, together on the summit. It,that's more than competition.
Erik Weihenmayer: It was beyond competition. It was like this wonderful sense of being a kindred spirit with someone in the world.
And 'cause I loved asking you stories and, and hearing about your life and just going, yeah, I connect with that.
Well, tell everyone how you got started climbing, because I think your parents were scared for you to go climbing. And I remember you told me this cool story about just heading off into the mountains one day with one of your mentors, right?
Andy Holzer: Yeah, of course. My mother is now, uh, 80, 84 years old. Yeah.
And people asking her, Hey, are you afraid when your son is, going to, to the high mountains, Himalaya, or anywhere? And my mother says, no, I am not afraid. I was in fear 50 years ago as the experts of this world said, uh, he's not able to make an a normal profession.
He's a blind, uh, kid and he's not able to have a normal life. That was a time my parents, uh, went into, into the fear, but not when Andy is going to Himalaya. We are happy about this. This is the answer of my parents. Yes.
Erik Weihenmayer: Yeah. Yeah. Very good parents.
Andy Holzer: Mm-hmm.
Erik Weihenmayer: Mm-hmm. And then it was like a neighbor of yours that took you climbing, right?
When were you a teenager?
Andy Holzer: No, I was 23. I was a physical therapist. Uh, as usual, after the therapy, you get a, a gift, a souvenir or something or some tip. Yes. And a lots of my patients said, uh, I have no gift for you, but I will take you on my rope some Sunday on the mountains.
And that was the best gift what I could have. But this Sunday never comes. I was standing Sunday for Sunday outside of our house in the sunshine in the morning at six o'clock, nobody came because they all get in fear. What did they promise uh, a blind guy. It's not possible to bring him on the mountains.
And then Hans, a friend of my father was coming on one Sunday at six o'clock in the morning. He was very afraid. But he did it. He went with me into the Dolomite Mountains. First time it was, uh, September, 1990. I was 23 years old, and he started with me the first climb. Very, very simple.
Erik Weihenmayer: You must be very proud of what he started for you now.
Andy Holzer: I have written two books and he is always the, the hero of my books because he's the creator of Andy Holzer, of course. Because he could see things, what at this time, was outside of the focus. Nobody could see this.
And this is also a a message what I am bringing in my presentations everywhere in the world. Uh, please do not only trust in things, what you can see. The biggest chance is outside, is in the unknown. The biggest chance for your future in the unknown, not there in the light.
And Hans Bruchner was believing in the unknown. He had no idea what is coming to me. But now he's 93 years old, and now he's very proud and he says, I knew it before he did it. He will go to Mount Everest someday, 40 years before. 40 years before
Erik Weihenmayer: Andy, I, you can't see me, but I have like, honestly a little tear running down my left eye right now because. Again, it's just like the connections are so powerful because for me it was my dad who, when I was 16 and I'd gone blind and I thought, what can I do as a blind person? Like what sports will I be able to enjoy? And my brothers were athletes and my dad in Connecticut, found out about this, a recreational program for blind kids.
And he would drive me three hours once a month, to this center where we would embark as blind people on this great adventures, uh, canoeing and sailing and horseback riding. And one weekend they took us rock climbing in a state called New Hampshire. And I loved it so much. And, just everything about it, it changed the trajectory of my life, you know.
And so , these people that take a chance, that believe in us, like they're door openers, right
Andy Holzer: Door openers, uh, into, into, into areas. Uh, they are fully in the unknown. Afterward, people say, oh, of course this is of course possible because the blind guys, they have better, better, feelings. Everything, of course. Afterward, yes, but not before.
Erik Weihenmayer: yeah, exactly. It's only in the, after looking back.
Andy Holzer: Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's the point. Yeah. But we need the people. They can see it in the unknown. Erik, we are the experts of the darkness. That means. when I go into the stage, I say to the guy on the stage, he, he introduce me. Yeah. Uh, don't tell people that I'm a blind climber, don't tell people that I have been on top of Everest. That's not necessary. That's not important. Tell people another story.
Say to the people in your announcement. Okay, ladies and gentlemen, we had a lot of difficult time, behind us, uh, COVID and, and so on. You know what I mean? A lots of unknown behind. And we have a lots of unknown in front of us. Yes. But now we have an expert for you guys. This expert have never seen his shoes. He have never seen his legs, but he makes his steps into the unknown and most of these steps are very perfect. And this is our expert. Andy Holzer please tell your story. So this is, that's a good point. Nothing to do with, with challenging, with Everest or with climbing. Nothing. It's not necessary.
Erik Weihenmayer: Yeah, yeah.
Andy Holzer: Trust into that, what you not can feel. When your feeling is finished, when your fantasy is finished doesn't mean that the reality is finished. There is a lot of opportunities outside of your thinking. That's my message, you know?
Erik Weihenmayer: I love that message. Yeah. And you made a big decision after we met for that first time.
As you said, you're a massage therapist, physical therapist, and then, uh, you decided to become a professional climber to start, you know, being an adventurer, full-time going around the world, climbing the tallest peak in every continent. You've been to, you know, Madagascar and Antarctica and Greenland.
You've been crushing it for many years now, huh? Uh, what was that decision like?
Andy Holzer: It was the same, was the same thing. I was in my hospital. The sun was shining into the window on my arms. I could feel the sun and I was, hating the sun because I thought the sun is never shining for me.
It's always shining for the others. That was my feeling. And so I got very, very, angry and uh, I took the step to cancel my, uh, fixed job. People said, Hey, he's very, uh, confused. He's blind and he make a canceling of his fixed job till the end of his life. He's very silly.
Erik Weihenmayer: You didn't have a plan exactly either, right? Yeah.
Andy Holzer: I had no plan. Yes. But I was canceling my, my job. That means first you have to cancel your bad things. Then the good things are coming. And it was 2009, everybody was loving and saying, uh, what a crazy guy. Oh, he's very fine. He's a easy life because he's blind and he has a good story.
Very easy. I am not blind. I have to make my job again in the hospital. that was the answer of the same people. You're jealous three years later, you know,
Erik Weihenmayer: They envy you. Yeah. Yeah. That's amazing. Yeah. I was also, I had a real job for many years. I was a teacher and, uh, how I remember that how long decision, decision, how long, how long?
I was a teacher for six years. Yes. And, uh, and how this, how did you make, I could have done it forever, but, uh, you know, I made that same decision like, God, can I make a life in the mountains as a blind climber, how cool would that be to live life every day and with this big adventure. And someday I can come back to teaching. But it definitely was an idea.
Andy Holzer: Maybe we are teaching now in this moment, Erik, we are teaching both.
Erik Weihenmayer: I feel like that.
Andy Holzer: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Erik Weihenmayer: But I thought, you know, the kids, you know, this is an kids,
Andy Holzer: Erik, the kids are listening here on the podcast.
Erik Weihenmayer: I know. My kids, my kids though, are like 35 now. Yeah. But yeah.
yeah, yeah. I,
I, I always would laugh because I was like, the blind climbing business isn't really like this, career that many venture capitalists were going to invest in. Not many Wall Street people were going to make an investment in the blind climbing business. But, you know, I've been making it work now for 30 something years, which you have too. It's pretty amazing.
Andy Holzer: Yes. I stopped, uh, asking, uh, about sponsors like this. Uh. But what I would, what, what, what the most important thing, what I want to say, uh, the decision, the sun was shining on my arms and I said, the sun is never shining for me. It's shining for the others. Now, since 2009. The sun is shining for Andy also. You know, that's different.
Erik Weihenmayer: Yeah, it definitely is.
Andy Holzer: yes.
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Erik Weihenmayer: Let me ask you a question, Andy, people always ask me, so I want to turn it onto you. so you can't see. Why do you climb? Like, what do you experience?
Andy Holzer: Yes, I have an answer. a part of this answer you gave me, uh, 20 years before. To falling down in, into a area, what you can see is very, very heavy.
But to falling down in the area you cannot see is the most bad thing what you can think. So but, uh, the reality is for me now, the only real feedback in this life, what you are doing, what you are thinking, what you are planning, is not your success in the business on your bank office, how much money is there or how many people are clapping their hands, or how many TV stations are calling you. That's not an indicator for success. For me, the only point is the mountain. Because the mountain do not know that you are blind. The mountain have no idea that you don't want to fall down. You want to come to the summit. The, the mountain do not know this. Yes. And, uh, the, the,
Erik Weihenmayer: The mountain is not, uh, worried about accessibility.
Andy Holzer: Nothing. It's it's reality. It's not more. And when you take the right partner, when you, uh, take the right shoes, the right rope, the right day, the right route, when you take everything right, thinking a good sleep, everything, you will reach the summit.
When you make a mistake in one point, you will land into the hospital or, or the groove maker is, uh, bringing you to the groove, uh, to the grave. The grave maker. I don't know in English a word, but right.
Erik Weihenmayer: Widow maker.
Andy Holzer: He brings you on on your last rest. Yes. only one mistake. and this is a feedback for me. What is really reality? I have a lot of experience. I made one mistake in planning. I made one mistake in timing. We didn't reach the summit. But when you make everything right and when you make it twice or three times, I have to go three times to Mt. Everest.
One day is coming and you will get to the summit. Of course, one day may comes it is your last day, that's also possible. That's this reality. what is for me, the point to climb mountains. Because with no money, you can. I got this, uh, this feeling in people you give him, don't know the word in English.
You give the people a few thousand dollars and then they say yes as a no or make this, make this, but the mountain is not interested in money. You know what I mean?
Erik Weihenmayer: The only exchange is, yeah, you put in the hard work and you stay safe and, and, uh, you respect the mountain, right. And then you hope for a little bit of luck maybe along the way.
Andy Holzer: Of course. Of course. I have also the opposite experience, to, to stay, uh, beside the church. And, uh, my climbing partner is coming into the grave. Because he was falling down last Sunday. I had the same experience. Uh, 2001 on the 18th of August, the climbing partner of my was dying on the other end of my rope. So I know also the other story, the bad stories. And that's the point why climbing on the rocks, on ice, on, on nature on mountains is the only feedback what counts for me.
Erik Weihenmayer: Yeah. Yeah. I remember you telling me that story. It was horrible. Your friend was leading and he fell and uh, and died and, uh, you were lucky to have cell coverage and you got a rescue, right? And you Yeah. Yeah. You had to recover his body. Yeah. those things happen in the mountains, those horrible things.
Andy Holzer: What is your point? What do you say when, uh, people are going to the summit because of you and you have no view. What, what's about this? What, what do you, what, what's your answer about this?
Erik Weihenmayer: I, I think, um. All right. Just let's pretend it's just us though, and I'll tell you that I think people are lying, uh, when they say they just summit for the view because. Right.
100% that's the case, right? If that's the case, then just get yourself a postcard. Yes, you'll like save a lot of work. You can, can just google wonderful pictures from the summit of all kinds of mountains. You never have to do anything. I think we climb, including blind people for the same reasons. Like the experience of it and this process of coming together with a team of people and putting your life in each other's hands and then doing something beautiful to together and going through this, as you said, the darkness and finding the light at the other end, and answering questions and solving problems together and going through hardships together and emerging on the other side.
I, in my vernacular, I call that this no barriers life, this ability to kind of move forward and continue to, to grow, as an individual and as a, as a team. And so I really love that process.
Andy Holzer: That's, it's really, Hey, another question. People always ask me. Uh, I, I had the two, two friends only, we were only three people on Everest. Yeah. Uh, I did it. Uh, I remember. People always want to, to give me, yeah. Okay. But the other two bring you to the summit. You are not able to make it a alone.
And then I said, oh, you are wrong. You are wrong. We are three people. I think you, you have been 13. Doesn't matter.
Erik Weihenmayer: Yeah. There are 13 of us.
Andy Holzer: Yeah. Is
Erik Weihenmayer: and 8 Sherpas is, by the way, we had a big team. 21 in all.
Andy Holzer: But we are all in the same responsibility. All the different, right? Yes. One of my guys is Wolfgang Wolf and the other is Clements. They are really good climbers and, uh, mountain guides and dun, dun, dun dun. They are able to cross big crevasses. They are able to climb and, and to make everything, but they are not able to know how a blind man is crossing a big crevasse. They are not able to make it for me. So we have lots of things to come to top of Everest.
Right? Lots of things to do. Checking the weather report, bringing the gear up, checking the ice conditions, uh, the fixed ropes and a lot, the, the tents, the cooking, the meal, everything. And there are experts. The cook is the expert for the meals. Yes. And my friends are the experts, uh, for the crossing, crevasses, or, uh, calculate, uh, the ice conditions and so on. But one expert in my team is the expert for the blindness, and this is Andy Holzer. Nobody knows how to move a blind body across the Khumbu Icefall.
What will, all your guys do? They are not able to bring your blind body through the ice fall. The only expert for this is Erik Weihenmayer. and so without you it's not possible to bring a blind man on top of Everest.
Erik Weihenmayer: Yeah, after I climbed Everest, um, you know, so much positivity, but you always remember the negative things that people say.
And one of the comments was, uh, anyone can get to the top of Mount Everest with 13 seeing eye guides. And I showed my teammate Chris Morris, that post and he said, dude, you climb that mountain and then some. And I thought, yeah, you're right. I did climb that mountain and then some. Meaning you and me climbed 10 Everests.
Andy Holzer: That's right. Yeah. That really, yeah. That's the point. That's really,
Erik Weihenmayer: but people are always gonna be like strange. Some people like the door closers are always gonna, but they try to bring you down.
Andy Holzer: They are lying themself. That's not right. Yeah. That's, that's very, I, I can't remember the story from the New Zealand guy without legs. So what's his name on the north side?
Erik Weihenmayer: Oh, , uh, mark Engles or something?
Andy Holzer: Yes, yes, yes. I know him, uh, personally, you know him also.
Erik Weihenmayer: I heard about him. I never met him.
Andy Holzer: I met him. Very nice guy. He had the same problems. People said, yeah, they are carrying him, him. And nobody can carry somebody up there. It's, it's absolute nonsense. Absolute nonsense. But it's not only on Everest, it's in the whole life. The same thing. Please do it by yourself, then you can talk about it. Yes.
Erik Weihenmayer: So you went to Everest three times. Three times, yeah. Uh, now I remember you got so unlucky in a way because the first time, there was an avalanche, I believe that like came down and killed a bunch of people and shut the mountain down.
Andy Holzer: 16. 16 people in the Khumbu Icefall. Yes. Yeah.
Erik Weihenmayer: That was, was a terrible year on Everest. That was your first time. Your second time you went and the Nepal experienced an earthquake that killed thousands and thousands of people all over country
Andy Holzer: Nine, the country nine and 200. I was on second time on the north side , on the Mallory route. And we came to the ABC, nothing else.
Erik Weihenmayer: Yeah. So after those two tries, Andy, I know you're a positive spirit, but were you thinking like, is the universe speaking to me?
Andy Holzer: Yes. That's what the question, and I took my personal Everest in the cellar 2016 the next year. I don't want to go there. Because, uh, sometimes you have to took your, your target in the, in the cellar up away from your eyes.
And 2016 I went again into Antarctica, second time and, into Madagascar and anywhere. And in the Autumn of 2016, the, what's the word in English? Like, like , I got very warm heart about Everest and I asked Wolfgang, Hey, what's about your thinking about Everest?
And Wolfgang said, there is a open book. We have to write it finish. I called my Sherpa team in Nepal. Hi guys. Here is Andy. We come back, uh, in March or in April. Is it possible? Yes, Andy. Uh, we are happy you are coming. Uh, and, and I had no money. I had nothing. But, uh, uh, when you always plan everything, for the final, you will never start. Sometimes you have to go and to trust into the, the unknown. Yes.
Erik Weihenmayer: Yeah. Yeah. And you became the first blind person to climb the north side. I was the first person to climb the south side. So again, right there. Yeah. We are selling not only
Andy Holzer: and it's not selling, um, uh, sharing, sharing, sharing. Right. Yeah. We are sharing the top of the world. Exactly. Amazing. Yeah, it's really amazing.
Didrik Johnck: No Barriers would like to thank Maison Hennessy, a partner since 2023 for supporting our projects and closely collaborating with us to promote diversity and inclusion amongst their employees.
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Erik Weihenmayer: Now, in Nepal for a couple years, there was a law or a rule that the government put in place that said, no disabled people.
Andy Holzer: Could you remember?
Erik Weihenmayer: Yeah,
Andy Holzer: they, they did the interview with me, do you know what I, what I did to answer them? No. uh, . And I said, oh, it's a big compliment. Big compliment for us. Because when you see the history, Erik Weihenmayer and I think an Australian guy, between us, I don't know, 2010 or 12, I don't know. Yeah, he tried.
Erik Weihenmayer: I think he fell on a crevasse Yes.
Andy Holzer: Turned back on in the base camp.
Erik Weihenmayer: Yes.
Andy Holzer: Yes. And myself. You make own, what's the word in English? Law, I think law you make. Right. A, separate law for three guys.
It's amazing. Thank you, government of Nepal.
You're wasting your time.
We are so important. Erik Weihenmayer and myself. Thank you very much. That was my answer.
Erik Weihenmayer: Yeah. But you know, every religion sort of has its superstition, I feel. I'm being a little blunt here. And so the superstition there is that if a blind person or a person that is impure and or something, and that brings, destruction or devastation down on the villages and Nepal, like blaming in a way the earthquake and the avalanches on, on the disabled people or in the past maybe it was women who were quote unquote impure.
So anyway, they abolish that. and I, it always makes me think like in, in the mountains, Andy, who is the gatekeeper? You know, in, in the fifties or sixties, right, it took the resources of a nation to get a Everest team together and to get sponsorships. And it was the country's best climbers that only got the opportunity to go.
Now anyone can go. Right? And I guess that's a blessing and a curse because the blessing is that two blind people can go up and have the gall to think they can climb Everest. I guess the curse is that, you know, now everyone sort of, without the preparation, I mean you climbed half your life before you went to Everest.
Now you can just on a whim say, I want to climb Everest. And I think for me the message is like, yes, there is wonderful freedom in the world and that's a beautiful thing, right? But also, I hope along with that comes responsibility. You know, people make good decisions and, and don't go on the fast track necessarily, right?
You may get lucky, but go prepared. You know what I mean? Like that's the fun part, is pre preparing with your friends and learning everything you need to know so that you're not just surviving, you're actually flourishing on the mountain.
Andy Holzer: I'm 100% agreeing, your words there.
Very interesting. But, never forget Erik, they say, everybody, uh, can also, blind guys are climbing now Mount Everest. They, people... anyone can do it.
They people should try to go to the disabled toilet on the airport of Munich. They are not able to do this. uh,
What I want to say is, I think you and myself are not able to have an overview what we did, really. How big this thing is, because this is our. passion . I think a passion. Yeah, a passion, yes. Yeah. we have no idea how big this deal is. I, I had a discussion with Reinhold Messner. I said to Reinhold, Reinhold, what do you did without oxygen? Because lots of people asked me, Andy, but you did it with oxygen. What a silly question. I said, yes, I did it with oxygen, but I did it without light.
And then I asked, uh, Reinold Messner, the first of the world climbed Everest without oxygen or without, uh, separate oxygen. Uh, it's amazing. , But Reinhold, could you believe or could you imagine that you are going without light to the Mount Everest, but not from the base camp or from camp three. From home to go to the airport without light. In the airport, to bringing, uh, yourself to the toilet without a problem. And coming to Kathmandu and, and, and then the hotel and blah, blah, blah, to the base camp and after camp one. "No, I'm not able to make it without light." And then I said to Reinhold, okay, Reinhold. you are not able to make it what I did. I am not able to make it what you did.
Who is now the better climber? Forget it. We are different and not better and worse. We are different than the diversity is the chance of our world. You know what I mean? He's not able to do what we do and we are not able what he's doing.
Who is the better man you are. That's a question. That's no question.
Erik Weihenmayer: That's so amazing,
Andy Holzer: This humility. Yes. Very simple.
Erik Weihenmayer: Andy, so you had mentioned finding the toilet in the Munich airport. I like that because, you know, because we've climbed E Everest doesn't mean as a blind person you don't get lost in the mall.
Like I've been lost in the mall trying to find, you know, my appointment or, um, struggling matching your socks. Right. They're the small things. I think when we were talking last, I told you about a story where I, I was living in an apartment when I was younger. Wow. Yeah. And my neighbor, we were hanging out, drinking a beer or something, and he said, Hey, by the way, I just wanna let you know in the morning with your lights on, sometimes you keep the, uh, the shades aren't down and you're getting dressed.
And I'm like, oh crap. Like, I'm naked in front of all my neighbors and they're all like walking their dogs and looking at my naked body in the window. Yikes. So like, what are the crazy things that happen to you that you struggle with off the mountain?
Andy Holzer: uh, indeed. Um, the, the, the toilet on the airport of, of Munich, uh, you have to, you have to, uh, it's, it's serious.
Erik Weihenmayer: Yeah.
Andy Holzer: It is normal. I went into the toilet. I, did my thing , and then I went to, went out of the toilet. Yeah. The door was closed. I have no chance to bring the door out open. No. No chance. And then I, I was knocking on the door. You were trapped.
Yes. I, I was knocking on the door. Nothing happens. And then I found a button. A voice was coming. Hello. Hello. Problem. Yes. Uh, I am blind. I'm in the toilet. I'm not able to come out. Okay. Okay. Okay. touch, um, on the touch screen. Okay. Where is the touch screen?
Yeah, and then I could find the touch screen, beneath my knees because it's for the, oh gosh. it's not for blind guys. It's made for, um, for chair wheels. I said, yeah. On which point on the touch screen? A lots of story. A lots of. A lot of things to do to come out of the toilet of, of, of disabled people, you know, very simply. Yeah. That was not so nice. I have lots of stories, uh, like this, but, uh, my personal thinking is, um, you as a blind man, so I mean myself, you are responsible for, uh, your, out of barriers. You cannot wait for the other people making away the barriers for you. You have to make it for you and, uh, then you are out of barriers. Of course. Yeah.
Okay. 30 years ago they said. Okay. Andy is blind, but it's much Too difficult and too dangerous to climb mountains because he's blind. It's not possible. Never. And then I couldn't hear this, of course, because they were talking behind at their doors. And then I climbed, starting climbing with Hans Bruner, as I told before, and then I reached the summits. My first small summits in the Dolomites here in front of my house.
And then I reached the summits in the Western Alps in the, in the Mont Blanc, in the Italy Alps. And then I reached the first summit in Africa to Kilimanjaro. And then I first, uh, summit in South America. I was on Aconcagua.
And then the same people say, okay, now he's not falling down, but when he's not falling down as a blind climber, he's not blind. That's the answer for them. Know what I mean? Mm-hmm. First time it's not possible because I'm blind . Okay. He was not falling down, but he's not blind now. Yeah. Yeah. He's an advantage because he's a blind man. Have a good story. We are not blind.
Yeah. Yeah.
Erik Weihenmayer: Well but for you internally, when you were that boy, you know, standing outside your house at 6:00 AM and those people weren't coming to climb with you, How has your life turned out? Was it different than what you imagined when you were that age?
Andy Holzer: Uh, completely, 100%, uh, 180 degree turning or turnaround.
Now people are calling me on the phone, on the, on the email from Switzerland, from Germany. They are, uh, traveling six, seven hours with the car to make a climb with Andy Holzer. You know, it's completely changed and I have to make a plan. Sometimes I have three or four people here. Uh, I do not know what to do with them.
And, uh, I am afraid to come in the same situations as my people, uh, at 40 years ago came with me to say, I, I am not here. Yeah. Yeah. it's completely 180 degrees. Uh, it's tides have turned... changed, yes. It's also on your side? Are people calling you, to make a climb with you or to make the, I think it's the same thing on your side, or what, what's about you?
Erik Weihenmayer: Yeah. I just have these tight knit friends that we all go out climbing together, and I'm so, I'm so fortunate and blessed that, you know, on the hike up the hill in the rocky terrain, I probably slow them down a little bit, but I'm just so blessed that, you know, we're able to be a team and go out and do fun things and challenge each other.
I'm so happy to be out there doing something at a high level. and despite the fact that I am different, that I have different abilities and so forth.
Andy Holzer: Yeah. And I think also, uh, different is the, the, the place, uh, where you are living. I have the Dolomites behind my house.
Oh, you're so lucky. And, uh, I making five times per week I make a climb, And, uh, I cannot find five times per week one of my good friends with a high, with a, with a, with a good quality climb. So I take, a few days ago I had a lady, she's 68 years old, but very fit, very, very fit. I teach her climbing in the Dolomites.
I climbed with her a very simple rock grade with eight pitches, and she was happy. And Wow. I had a climbing day. So I make also very simple, simple climbs.
Erik Weihenmayer: I love that. Yeah, of course. Yeah. So you become a mentor for so many people.
Andy Holzer: Yeah. That's, that's point. Yeah.
Erik Weihenmayer: What would you say to that disabled kid who's standing outside of his door in his early life waiting, you know, and just hoping and wondering what his life will turn out.
What kind of wisdom would you tell people?
Andy Holzer: I think the kids have the right software into their brain before the parents, uh, blow out the software and bringing them a standard software. And this is the point. Let the kids be kids. Erik Weihenmayer is now close to 60. I am also close to 60.
We are kids, you know, you and me. That's the only point that we could make this life. uh, kids, I'm not afraid into the kids. I give also to the kids the responsibility. I say to them, I, I cannot see, I have no idea. You have to lead me. You have the responsibility in the next two hours. Yeah. They love it and they love it, and they make it really good. They make it good. And, uh, never make a, a discussion about the scientific about these things. It's very simple. It's nature. Mm-hmm. Finish.
Erik Weihenmayer: Yeah. So it's the parents that when their software is locked. Yeah. Yeah. That becomes the problem. That's the, that's the point. Their software is already written. Yeah. The kids are the best.
Andy Holzer: The software is there. The kids are the best. Yeah. That, that, that's true.
Yes. Of course.
Erik Weihenmayer: Well, okay, so this is my last question, Andy, and it's the most important question that I've asked you all this conversation. And that is, what was it like to be interviewed with Playboy? Playboy, Germany, you've arrived. Hey, you're successful. Hey, you're so successful once you're interviewed by Playboy, Germany.
Andy Holzer: Hey, hey, what you know is, is amazing What you know about my medias. Uh, I think Herta told you about this, but uh, No. Listen in Playboy are lots of very interesting guys. I could hear some days he go, oh, I don't. I forget the name because Playboy is on not only a, a magazine, um, that's 40 years ago, what people, uh, think about Playboy. But, uh, I'm very proud because in school, in the when you start school with six years, uh, what, yeah, a Yeah, kindergarten here in the Yeah, yeah. Kindergarten,
Erik Weihenmayer: first
Andy Holzer: grade
we had a, , we had a small, newspaper. So a small, uh, spots and Posts magazine, maybe. Yeah. For, for kids. Uhhuh, for really Uhhuh six years kids. and I am very proud because Andy Holtzer was into this post also.
Erik Weihenmayer: You reach all the levels.
Andy Holzer: Yeah. Yeah. yes, yes. I did it from black to white every, everywhere. And that's the point. I'm proud about this, you know. Awesome. I have been, uh, by Queen Elizabeth in Buckingham Palace in London, and I have been into the, what's the word in English? when you make a, a criminalistic, uh, thing, uh, , they lock you into a room.
Erik Weihenmayer: Yeah. they jail you.
Andy Holzer: Yeah. Yeah. I was also there and I was in the Buckingham Palace, uh, by Queen Elizabeth. You know, that's my way. Uh, I am everywhere.
Erik Weihenmayer: the prison to the palace.
Andy Holzer: Yes. The pri the prison, is the word. Yeah. I know. Yeah. Yeah.
Erik Weihenmayer: Well, Andy, you're living an incredibly full life, and, it's so great to be talking to you across the ocean this morning here.
Thank you so much. Evening, and thank you so much, many, many years of great climbing and adventuring and, uh, and love and passion ahead of you. Okay, friend.
Andy Holzer: What I want to say to people while listening here. We know us, more than 20 years, and for me, nothing changed. We could hear us, uh, lots of years, never, uh. Last week, first time for making this, uh, conversation now, and I could feel there were only three days between.
And it's, uh, of course it's a secret. We have not to talk about the big, but, uh, we have very similar, uh, shicksal, uh, the name in the word in English. Uh, we have the same ambitions or connections. Yeah. Not connection. No. The same, simple word is problems. Uh, not, yeah, because we are blind, but the life, the lifestyle. Uh, we have the same, the same way,the same climb in the life. Uh, that's very, very, very special. There is no big different, and we are not competition as we are soul brothers. And that's what I like.
Erik Weihenmayer: And we need to climb together again. As long as you bring the helicopter. All right. Cool friend. yeah, let me know what you wanna climb next. I'll come out and spend time with you. Thank you Andy. No Barriers to everyone.
Andy Holzer: Make it also like Erik and myself. We are kids of the world. Ciao. Thank you very much. Greetings from the Dolomite Mountains in Austria. Bye-bye.
Didrik Johnck: The production team behind this podcast includes Producer Didrik Johnck. That's me, an audio engineer, Tyler Kottman. Special thanks to the Dan Ryan Band for our intro song guidance, and thanks to all of you for listening. If you enjoyed this show, please subscribe, share it, and hey, we'd be thrilled for a review.
Show notes can be found nobarrierspodcast.com. There's also a link there to shoot me an email with any suggestions or guest ideas for the show. Thanks so much and have a great day.
